Bruckner 8 (III, Adagio. Feierlich langsam, doch nicht schleppend)

[chalkpie]

I admit, I know next-to-nothing about Bruckner, but hot damn, is this movement one masterfully written gorgeous adagio. Mahler fans must eat this up.

So on that topic, what other adagios (or just slow movements) by Bruckner are on this level, or is this his masterpiece? I am listening to the Von Karajan version on YT. Some very ingenious chord progressions.

[barry guerrero]

Just speaking for myself, I feel that Bruckner's most 'beautiful' adagio is the one to his 6th symphony. In fact, if it weren't for the finale, I feel that the 6th would be among Bruckner's very greatest works. In other words, the first three movements are terrific.

I very much like the first two movements to Bruckner's 7th, both of which being rather 'slow' in tempo and feel. In fact, the 7th is my favorite of Bruckner's 'completed' symphonies.

Needless to say, the last movement to Bruckner's 9th is a truly monumental movement (discounting the almost absurd, conjectural finale).

When it comes to Bruckner's monumental 8th symphony, it's actually the first movement that I like best. In fact, I think that I may prefer the first version of B8 to the much better known revision.

Just my zwei groschen.

[Clov]

I agree with barry, the first movement is a monumentally brilliant and complicated built-up to and sustainment of a central climax, phenonmenal. The second movement is my second fav of B8 just for the sheer joy of it.

As far B7, I love the second movement for pretty much the identical reason as the first movement of the B8, also the long paced string theme, you can't get much more beautiful and yet refined than that.

I love the B3 scherzo also, the sudden contrast between the sensationlistic bombast and the care-free joyous dance theme, brilliant. It is amazing what Bruckner can do with rhythm in his sound world.

[James Meckley]

Chalkpie,

The slow movements of Bruckner Seven and Eight are the pinnacles for me, the one from Seven incorporating as it does the 'non confundar in aeternum' theme from his Te Deum. Its elegiac coda was dedicated 'to the memory of the highly revered, well-loved and immortal master' when Bruckner became aware that Richard Wagner had died.

I prefer to hear the slow movement of Seven with the optional cymbal crash and additional percussion at the climax (as per Leopold Nowak).

The slow movements of Five and Six are also profoundly moving.

James

[barry guerrero]

Yes, B5 has a real good slow movement as well. However, I think it works better if it's NOT taken too slowly. Again, that's just my opinion.

[waderice]

Others before me have pretty much summed up what slow Bruckner movements I think are masterly.  There are movements of Bruckner symphonies that are of a different mood, and just as important to their accompanying adagio movements.  For me, these are the third movement of his 7th symphony, the finale of the 8th, and the first and last (not the incomplete one) movement of his 9th.  Earlier, the first movement of his 4th is pretty good, too.

There are now numerous complete cycles of the symphonies available for bargain prices.  The most recent one is on DG with Barenboim/Chicago, but others may prefer the cycle by Jochum/Dresden Staatskapelle.  Barenboim uses the Haas edition of the symphonies for his recordings and Jochum uses the Nowak edition.  There is a thread elsewhere at the Gustav Mahler Board discussing the editions if you're inclined to go look for it.  Additionally, here is an interesting web site:  http://www.abruckner.com/.

Wade

[chalkpie]

Thanks for the info fellas.

I guess I need to figure out what is the difference in editions?

[Clov]

A person who enjoys slow movement such as these might also enjoy the slow movement with the violin solo in Glass's 3rd, if you can get over listening to Glass of course. 

[waderice]

I guess I need to figure out what is the difference in editions?

I hate to say it, but yes, that is probably the biggest impediment to a listener's full appreciation of Bruckner's symphonies.  That will take concentrated listening to hear the differences.  Probably the most ready instance you will hear in recordings of say, the 7th, is whether or not a conductor wants to have a cymbal clash in the second movement climax.

Most conductors' recordings adhere to the Haas edition, so if you want to buy a complete cycle, I suggest you start with that one.  Then "graduate" to a cycle using Nowak's edition.

Wade

[chalkpie]

Would Von Karajan's DG Berliner box be a good starting point for a Bruckner newbie like me? It's cheap enough.

I'm not interested in buying separate discs of each symphony (yet) - I want one consistent set to get started, sort of like The Bertini (for GM) or Barshai (for DSCH).

How are the sonics in the Von K DG set?

Thanks.

[James Meckley]

Would Von Karajan's DG Berliner box be a good starting point for a Bruckner newbie like me? It's cheap enough. [snip] How are the sonics in the Von K DG set?

The price is right and HvK's performances would serve your purposes well. My only reservation is that the sound isn't very good. Symphonies 1, 2, and 3 are early digital recordings and the sound is quite harsh. The rest are analog, but they were remastered early in the digital era and the sound isn't great there either, though it's tolerable. Might be a good choice depending on your ability to deal with so-so audio.

James

[waderice]

As of the date of this post, based on James Meckley's input above regarding varying sound quality of the Karajan set (which I don't have), for an additional fifteen dollars, you also get with the Barenboim/CSO set, the early Symphony No. "0", plus Bruckner's Te Deum and another short choral work, Helgoland.  While I'm unable to compare the sound quality of both sets, and considering that Karajan was good with Bruckner, Barenboim was no slouch either with Bruckner, he, having been a student of Furtwangler who was considered the foremost authority on Bruckner performance.

Wade

[James Meckley]

I own two CD incarnations of the Barenboim/CSO set: the original DG release from the late 80s (in print for about six months) and the special remastering done by Tower Records of Japan (a very expensive import, now out of print). The sound of the original DG set is rather coarse and grainy, while the Japanese remastering represents a significant improvement. I don't have the current DG budget box, but I suspect the sound is fine—it may have even been lifted straight from the Japanese box.

Interpretively, this first Barenboim set is a young man's Bruckner—more exuberant than profound—but the CSO display all the power they're justly famous for. My only caveat, if you go this route, is to not take too seriously the way Barenboim handles the coda to No. 8; it's utterly wrong-headed and spoils an otherwise fine performance. (Furtwängler did it the same way, and he—at least at this spot—was equally wrong-headed.)

James

EDIT: An Amazon alternate seller is currently offering the Barenboim Bruckner set new for $31.95.

[chalkpie]

Many thanks for the input guys.

Sound/sonics is quite important to me in my enjoyment of classical music, as some of you know I am more "modernist" Mahler guy, so maybe I will get more mileage out of the Barenboim set.

I have and enjoy his M5, M7, and M9 on occasion.

[James Meckley]

Chalkpie,

For the same price or less (about $22.00 from one Amazon alternate seller!) you can get Barenboim's second Bruckner set, this time with the Berlin Philharmonic on Teldec. The sound is better (modern digital recordings) and the interpretations are more refined—he had another twenty years to think about them. Something to consider since sound is important to you.

He still fumbles the end of Symphony No. 8.

James