Author Topic: B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.  (Read 7874 times)

Offline barry guerrero

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B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.
« on: December 23, 2013, 07:30:44 PM »
As I now have some free time in my life (and won't again, very soon), I'm treating myself to a M8 festival. So far, I've listened to J. Nott, Markus Stenz and Colin Davis.

Nott has the best sound, but Stenz has better vocalists - particularly the tenor - and the best ending of ANY Mahler 8 (that said, Zinman makes the best crescendo on the final chord of anyone). But what puts Colin Davis over the top for me, in spite of the lessor sound quality, are two things: 1). conducting, but  more importantly, 2.) Davis has outstanding choral forces.

I think that one major factor in evaluating Mahler 8 performances that doesn't get enough consideration is not just the size of the choral forces employed, but how well 'trained' they are for the job. It would be interesting to get the input of choir directors as to which are the better or best Mahler 8's. Obviously though, you can't go entirely by the choirs employed. If you did, everyone would rate the Robert Shaw M8 at the top (which it ain't - not bad though). To complicate matters, acoustics, engineering and microphone placement are all important factors as well.

Davis has been rather self-deprecating when it comes to his Mahler. But I think he need not be - I think he holds his own quite well. As I've pointed out before, because of his thorough experience with ALL of those larger than life Berlioz works, he sounds so comfortable with the scope and rhetoric of Mahler's magnum opus.

For those of you who still own the Davis, I ask you to just compare two major passages against pretty much any other recording. Just play through the entire double fugue in Part I, leading into the reiteration of "Veni, veni Creator Spiritus". IMHO, this entire section has never been done better - the choral work is just outstanding, while Davis' handling of the transition back into Tempo I (Veni Creator Spiritus) is superbly done. It's so well done that I just don't care about the less than overwhelming organ. Then take a listen to the orchestral accompaniment behind the baritone and bass-baritone solos in Part II.

In so many recordings, the accompaniment behind the baritone and bass-baritone solos sounds slack and somewhat unprepared. It sometimes sounds as though the conductor is rather embarrassed by the writing, or that those passages simply weren't rehearsed enough (Bernstein was excellent in these passages). But again, I think it's because of Davis' experience in handling Berlioz's often times odd accompaniments behind his vocal soloists, Davis just sounds so comfortable here.

Unfortunately, Part II also exposes the one major flaw of Davis' M8 recording, and that's that the vocal soloists are often times too far forward in the recording's perspective. As some of you know, this gets rather uncomfortable in the Three Penitent Women passage. There are a couple of larger-than-life mezzos that are a bit tough to take. But on the plus side, the Tolzer Boys Choir is excellent, and tenor Ben Heppner was at the top of his game here. Let's take another passage.

Listen to the orchestral interlude for harps, chamber organ (harmonium), violins and - later on - woodwinds. There's nothing remarkable about this passage at first, as the harps are really a tad too distant. But again, listen to the choral work as this passages develops, leading up to those Penitent Women.

OK, I know those Penitent Women are hard to take. But given the over-miking employed (I think they may have been amplified in the performance!), Davis was wise to choose slow tempi to go along with them. If you can get past those singers (I know, it's tough!), the accompaniment behind them is quite lovely. That's all for now, I'll add more later.


To sight another example, listen to the brief trumpet solo after Ben Heppner's excellent job on "Blicket auf". There's some real phrasing that happens there. Granted, the end of "blicket auf" could use a bit more tam-tam, but Davis saves the tam-tam for the end of the symphony, as any of you who've heard this recording can attest. And while Davis could stand to place a tad more space between each of those simultaneous tam-tam/cymbal strokes, he at least gives us a real bass drum crescendo on the final chord (Zinman out does him and everyone else for that, though).

Best of all - and the most thrilling moment in ANY Mahler 8 - is how Davis hangs on to that very last "hinan" in the symphony. Unbelievable. No one else comes close.


Oh; by the way, I'm not a sycophant of conductors in general - I view them as a necessary evil - but the excellent series of recordings that Colin Davis made with the Dresden Staatskapelle are going to bundled and released in a box by Profil. I'm definitely getting that.





« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 08:20:25 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline Leo K

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Re: B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2013, 08:09:38 PM »
Excellant Barry! I too am having a M8-fest while also having a Bruckner fest. I finally have time.

I've revisted the MTT, Witt, and heard the Nott for the first time. Next in the player is the Stenz M8. I also aquired some broadcasts, like a Bernstein/NYP broadcast from 1965 (I've had this for a few years but never got around to it).

I think my overall favorite M8 is the Witt M8 (the singers are my favorite bunch overall). I still love Inbal's account on the Denon label. I quite like MTT for the CD mastering, a real nice quality recording (except hardly any organ).

--Todd






Offline barry guerrero

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Re: B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2013, 08:22:13 PM »
That's interesting Todd, because it's usually the vocal soloists that critics have complained about regarding Wit's M8. I never had a problem with his cast, but I'll have to go back over the recording to remember them as well. I'll 'do' the Wit M8 next.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2013, 09:08:26 PM »
Well, just to prove that - indeed - all things transitory are only a parable (alles vergaengliche ist nur ein gleichnis), my Colin Davis M8 has vanished into thin air. I was going to put it back on the rack, but I can not find any place. Weird; I think somebody is trying to tell me something (like I need a shrink, or some memory pills).

If I were 'tweeting', I guess it would read something like: "Listened to Mahler 8 with Colin Davis. Fantastic! Can't find it anywhere now. Lunch. Shopping. Then maybe sex by myself".  .   .  something like that.

Offline Leo K

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Re: B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2013, 09:57:09 PM »
 :)

I just put the Davis' M8 on my Amazon wishlist to get soon. I rather admire his DLvdE and I love his Bruckner 9 with the LSO.


Speaking of favorite M8's, I also love Gergiev's huge sounding account in St. Paul's Cathedrel. Another favorite next to the Wit!


Offline barry guerrero

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Re: B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2013, 10:11:17 PM »
The Gergiev is surprisingly good. All that sound washing around in the dome after the end of each part is just so fun to hear. It's more appropriate for the end of Part I, I suppose.

Offline Leo K

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Re: B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2013, 12:06:58 AM »
I have to admit its been a long time since I read along with the words to Part I and II. As a matter of fact, I can't recall the characters of Part II, just remember the gist of it. I know the 1st part is in Latin and the second from the last scene from Faust. The music is so direct and structured like a thousand seemless frescos I understand why it gets good exposure in the concert hall.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 12:13:52 AM by Leo K »

Offline Leo K

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Re: B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2013, 12:12:27 AM »
I just finished listening to Wit's M8 again and yes, it is spectacular. LOVE the soloists. They sound inspired.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2013, 12:22:19 AM »
OK then, I won't be a nit-wit by putting Wit up in the batter's box. I also have a DeWaart/Netherlands Radio Phil. M8 that I haven't listened to a long time. DeWaart also has a strong ending that's rather similar to Wit's, maybe just a tiny tad faster.

Offline Leo K

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Re: B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2013, 05:03:33 PM »
OK then, I won't be a nit-wit by putting Wit up in the batter's box. I also have a DeWaart/Netherlands Radio Phil. M8 that I haven't listened to a long time. DeWaart also has a strong ending that's rather similar to Wit's, maybe just a tiny tad faster.

Why is it bad to put Wit up in the batter's box?

Is that DeWaart's M8 from his Mahler cycle box? I used to have some of those but no longer. I've seen DeWaart conduct the M7 live and it was quite an event!

--Todd

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2013, 01:01:48 AM »
I was trying to be 'positive' by having a double negative - a feeble attempt at humor. But yes, the DeWaart M8 is from the box that was out on RCA for about five minutes. I too have seen DeWaart conduct M7. It was with the SFSO in the early or mid '80s, and it was excellent - far better than the M7 that I, unfortunately, witnessed MTT do (MTT's earlier LSO M7 is quite good though).

Offline Leo K

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Re: B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2013, 11:07:26 PM »
 :)

Ah I see!

Well, I heard the Stenz M8 and I immediately enjoyed it. The engineering is top notch, the orchestra and choir soars with lyrical execution, nothing sounds forced. I really like this M8. The soloists sound inspired. The orchestra is on fire. It's a direct M8 without sacrificing lyricism and beauty.

--Todd
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 11:30:04 PM by Leo K »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2013, 05:59:26 PM »
Yes, I listened through the Stenz last week also, and it was better throughout than I had first thought. I had initially thought of it as a fast run-through with a great ending tacked on to the end of it. But it's really better than just being that. 4.5 stars out of 5.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 09:52:47 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline Leo K

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Re: B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2013, 09:04:04 PM »
Yes, I listened through the Stenz last week also, and it was throughout than I had first thought. I had initially thought of it as a fast run-through with a great ending tacked on to the end of it. But it's really better than just being that. 4.5 stars out of 5.

I'm starting to really enjoy Stenz's Mahler cycle. His M3 is growing on me too.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: B.G M8-fest, why I love the C. Davis M8 so much.
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2013, 09:53:39 PM »
And as John Kim has pointed about, the finale of M7 has never been done better than it is on the Stenz recording. He just 'gets it'.

 

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