How did'ya discover Mahler?

[Constantin]

Quite right, and bear in mind that the two men stayed in personal correspondence for more than 20 years!

[stillivor]

Perhaps a difference between them is that sometimes [often?] Strauss wrote for money. I'd suggest Mahler never di and tried to meet his bills through his conducting and opera directorships instead.

    Ivor

P.S. 'Begging the question' has a specific and different meaning. To keep the language a bit cleaner, I prefer 'that raises the question' or 'the question then is' or some such. <Gets off hobby-horse> 

[Constantin]

I'm not sure I agree with these generalities. Strauss took the Nietzsche business quite seriously. Furthermore, I think he took the whole concept of 'tone poems' quite seriously as well. As opposed to Mahler, Strauss was trying to present 'late romantic' orchestral writing in a more concentrated form. I really don't belive that this is something that Strauss took lightly at all. There's no question that he meant to shock with both "Salome" and "Elektra". The "Alpen Sinfonie" - a work that is often time poo-poo'd as a lightweight - is now thought to be something of a tribute to Mahler. There's no question that Strauss bordered on the frivolous from time to time (Rosenkavalier comes across that way to me), but Mahler built his frivolous moments into his symphonies.
Barry

Barry, do you recall where it is mentioned that the Alpen Sinfonie might be something of a tribute to Mahler?  I'm not disputing it--I find it intriguing.

--Constantin
 

[James Meckley]

P.S. 'Begging the question' has a specific and different meaning. To keep the language a bit cleaner, I prefer 'that raises the question' or 'the question then is' or some such.

Quite right, sir, but I'm afraid this one's gone so far as to have become a lost cause. Just another—and in this case sad—example of our language "evolving," accelerated by frequent transgressions in the mass media.

James

[James Meckley]

...do you recall where it is mentioned that the Alpen Sinfonie might be something of a tribute to Mahler?  I'm not disputing it--I find it intriguing.
 

Constantin,

The only connection I know of between Strauss and Mahler concerning Eine Alpensinfonie is this: On the day after he learned of Mahler's death, Strauss wrote the following passage in his journal:

"The death of this aspiring, idealistic, energetic artist [is] a grave loss. Mahler, the Jew, could achieve elevation in Christianity. As an old man the hero Wagner turned to it under the influence of Schopenhauer. It is clear to me that the German nation will achieve new creative energy only by liberating itself from Christianity....I shall call my alpine symphony: Der Antichrist, since it represents: moral purification through one's own strength, liberation through work, [and] worship of eternal magnificent nature."

The three values Strauss mentions were certainly Mahler's as well, but this alone could hardly be considered a tribute. Perhaps Barry had something else in mind.

James

[barry guerrero]

"Barry, do you recall where it is mentioned that the Alpen Sinfonie might be something of a tribute to Mahler?  I'm not disputing it--I find it intriguing."

Off the top of my head, I don't recall. It certainly wasn't in any Mahler biography that I can remember. Instead, I'm pretty certain that I've seen that suggestion in liner notes to the "Alpine". It certainly rings true to me, but it would also be difficult to prove. What is truly beyond dispute, is that Strauss was quite despondent over Mahler dieing at such a young age.

Barry

[stillivor]

"Quite right, sir, but I'm afraid this one's gone so far as to have become a lost cause. Just another—and in this case sad—example of our language "evolving," accelerated by frequent transgressions in the mass media."


James, bugged by this I sent roughly the following to BBC radio 5 live "'Begging the question' has a specific meaning. If I say parallel lines will never meet because they're parallel, that IS 'begging the question' - assuming as true what you are trying to prove. You mean 'that raises the question', 'the question is then....' et cetera. I'm sure if you keep pracrtising one of those in the mirror, they'll get to be natural in time."

I sent the same note to Private Eye, adding P.S. I thought you lot were hedgemecated."

Since then, using the wrong phrase has become virtually obsolete on BBC radios 4 and 5, at least. The Beeb came up with 'that poses the question..' instead.

     Ivor

P.S. About to start my 11th trip though Mahler's works. Might try it for the first time with Strauss some time.

[Constantin]

"Barry, do you recall where it is mentioned that the Alpen Sinfonie might be something of a tribute to Mahler?  I'm not disputing it--I find it intriguing."

Off the top of my head, I don't recall. It certainly wasn't in any Mahler biography that I can remember. Instead, I'm pretty certain that I've seen that suggestion in liner notes to the "Alpine". It certainly rings true to me, but it would also be difficult to prove. What is truly beyond dispute, is that Strauss was quite despondent over Mahler dieing at such a young age.

Barry

Barry, I know what you are talking about when you speak of reading liner notes and the difficulty of proving remembrances.  I had the same experience last year, when I was speaking of the Posthorn Serenade of M3, and the story of the post coachman who played his posthorn above the valley below.  Of the first dozen or so references I went to, I could find no explanation of the story I had read years earlier on liner notes from Levine's M3 LP, I believed.  I finally found the story or rather poem of the Posthorn, first written down by Austrian music critic, Ernst Decsey, who had told Mahler that he recognized the inspiration for the Posthorn Serenade in the poem, "Lieblich war die Maiennacht, or Der Postilion (The Post Horn)."

Mahler confirmed to Decsey that reading that poem had been his inspiration.  It turns out that on Mahler's score, he had written at the first post horn entry, "Der Postillon."

For those who are interested, this anecdote is recounted on page 102 of Floros' Gustav Mahler: The Symphonies.

Constantin

[Constantin]

...do you recall where it is mentioned that the Alpen Sinfonie might be something of a tribute to Mahler?  I'm not disputing it--I find it intriguing.
 

Constantin,

The only connection I know of between Strauss and Mahler concerning Eine Alpensinfonie is this: On the day after he learned of Mahler's death, Strauss wrote the following passage in his journal:

"The death of this aspiring, idealistic, energetic artist [is] a grave loss. Mahler, the Jew, could achieve elevation in Christianity. As an old man the hero Wagner turned to it under the influence of Schopenhauer. It is clear to me that the German nation will achieve new creative energy only by liberating itself from Christianity....I shall call my alpine symphony: Der Antichrist, since it represents: moral purification through one's own strength, liberation through work, [and] worship of eternal magnificent nature."

The three values Strauss mentions were certainly Mahler's as well, but this alone could hardly be considered a tribute.
James

Thank you for this information, James.  Despite the three kind adjectives that Strauss uses to describe Mahler, his remarks about Mahler, the Jew and Wagner, (whose Christianity was precipitated by Schopenhauer !) do not sound like true praise, so much as a condemnation of Christianity. 

Perhaps it's small wonder that Mahler and Strauss were more aptly described as colleagues rather than as really "truly close friends."

Constantin

[AaronMcGarvey]

My first exposure to Mahler was in my senior year of high school (only two years ago). I was given the Manfred Honeck and Pittsburgh recording of Mahler 1 and it opened up a whole new area of music for me and I was hooked. Since then, I have tried to acquire great Mahler recordings and done a lot of reading on him, as I find the man to be a fascinating individual.

[James Meckley]

Welcome to the Mahler Board, Aaron.

James

[barry guerrero]

Aaron,

By all means, keep collecting the Honeck/Pittsburgh series. The 3rd is incredible, and the 4th is fairly good too. I think it's going to continue to be a good series. My prediction is that their M6 will be awesome (they don't perform it until later in 2012, I think). Anyway, welcome to the Mahler nuthouse.

[stillivor]

Hello Aaron

I envy you and anyone starting out on your Mahler voyage. There's something special about the early days and the first hearings of all of the works.

I say 'all' because I don't think he really composed a dud.

Best wishes




     Ivor

[AaronMcGarvey]

Thank you everyone for being so welcoming. To stillivor, it really is an awesome thing when you first discover Mahler. To barry, I have the M3 (incredible) and I have watched the webcast from when Pittsburgh performed M5 in the Philharmonie in Berlin on 9/11 (also incredible). I am interested to see how Honeck interprets M6 (movement order, number of hammer strokes, etc.). However he interprets it, I am sure Pittsburgh will sound fantastic doing it.

[FP23]

I was pushed in at the deep end: went to a concert aged 12 to hear Mozart's 5th violin concerto, and after the interval was Mahler 6.
I was completely blown away and since then have listened to Mahler pretty much every day! Love it!