Author Topic: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….  (Read 36646 times)

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2015, 04:03:35 PM »
"and as a high-resolution DVD-Audio disc, containing both stereo and 5.1 surround options"

I own that, and it does sound quite a bit better than the redbook cd. But it's still not among my very favorite M8 recordings, and I think it's greatly due to the 'splashy' sounding Paiste tam-tam, which also has a sort of metallic 'whang' to its tone (due to the stainless steel in the alloy). I'm also not that crazy about the tenor. Maybe it's also just the name, Simon Rattle.

Offline justininsf

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Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2015, 06:38:57 PM »
The sound on the Gergiev Mahler 8 can be slightly distracting because of the reverberation of the hall.  It's not just the sound swirling around at the end of each part, after any loud part you can hear the sound still resonating.  I can imagine that it was kind of a pain for the recording engineers.

Offline justininsf

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Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2015, 02:58:24 AM »
I read somewhere that the legendary Horenstein M8 performance of 1959 was recorded binaurally, or with a Blumlein microphone setup. 


The Horenstein Mahler 8 was recorded using a single AKG C-24 stereo valve (tube) microphone, its two capsules set to figure-of-eight patterns, and each capsule oriented 45 degrees off center axis (the classic Blumlein-stereo configuration). The C-24 was suspended high above the audience and aimed toward the performers on stage. This was the first concert ever recorded by the BBC in stereo, and it's definitely not a binaural recording (which would have required two small microphones being placed in the ear canals of an artificial head).

I'm in sympathy with AZContrabassoon above. I think the most realistic sound available right now would come from a well-made binaural recording, captured in high-resolution digital, and heard on really fine headphones—say my STAX electrostatics or equivalent. Still not like being there—for example, the physical impact of low frequencies on the body would be lost with headphone listening—but many more aural cues would be provided by this system than any other to help us imagine being there.

James

Do you know in that time period what medium it would be recorded to?  I am listening to it now, and it sounds amazing for something that is 55 years old.  Even at the large tuttis it doesn't sound bad.  I've heard much worse recordings from much more recently!!

Offline James Meckley

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Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2015, 05:25:20 AM »
Do you know in that time period what medium it would be recorded to?  I am listening to it now, and it sounds amazing for something that is 55 years old.  Even at the large tuttis it doesn't sound bad.  I've heard much worse recordings from much more recently!!


Unlike the microphone information I posted above—all a matter of public record—some of this post is based on informed speculation, relying on a knowledge of the history of audio recording and of what was going on at the BBC during the time in question.

The Horenstein Mahler 8 (20 March 1959) would have been recorded onto analog magnetic tape, without the benefit of noise reduction circuitry (Dolby 'A' wasn't introduced until 1966). Since only two channels were involved, the performance would have been recorded directly onto the two tracks of a standard quarter-inch, half-track tape recorder (likely an EMI BTR2, but possibly an EMI TR90 or a Studer, to which the BBC were transitioning during this time period), running at a tape speed of 15 inches-per-second.

"Half-track" means that two tracks (in this case the left and right stereo channels) would cover the entire width of the quarter-inch-wide tape, save for a narrow guard-band separating the two tracks in order to minimize cross-talk.

"BTR2" stands for "British Tape Recorder Model 2," and Studer is a very fine Swiss company still is business today.

"Dolby A" is a preemphasis/deemphasis process designed to reduce the audibility of tape hiss during playback without affecting the musical content. It works very well—virtually every commercial analog master tape made since circa 1968 used this (or a similar) noise-reduction system. The Dolby noise reduction process was invented by Ray Dolby (1933–2013), whose company, Dolby Laboratories, went on to become deeply involved with film sound, most recently introducing the Dolby Atmos system.

James
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 04:53:53 AM by James Meckley »
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
Henry Krehbiel, New York Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2015, 06:36:01 AM »
Thank you James. I don't always understand the technical side of things, but I always appreciate reading about them. The '59 Horenstein is pretty remarkable for a live performance from the cavernous Royal Albert Hall.

Offline justininsf

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Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2015, 07:00:37 AM »
Wow thanks for the treasure trove of info, it's nice to have a recording expert here.

Offtopic, but are there a lot of binaural recordings out there of classical music?  Is there any direction you can point me in?

Offline ChrisH

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Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2015, 02:31:39 PM »
To my knowledge there are very, very few binaural classical recordings.

David Chesky has some excellent binaural recordings, mostly jazz though. They are very impressive. He had a demo available with some crazy binaural stuff on it. Especially the haircut, that was seriously creepy.

http://www.chesky.com/content/binaural-series

I'm more curious if anyone will record an atmos orchestral blu-ray. Given the immersive effects of a properly set-up 5.0/.1 system and good multichannel recordings, atmos should be able to bring the immersion to another level. Especially with something like the 8th.

Offline AZContrabassoon

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Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2015, 06:11:06 PM »
The potential for Atmos and various 5.1 Surround Sound, Blu-Ray configurations for orchestral music is tremendous. But for headphone listening it's mostly a waste. However, binaural recordings, correctly done, are astonishing. Alas, there are very, very few. A group I play with did the Schumann 3rd last year and the recording engineer made a binaural recording along with a more traditional set up. The binaural is extraordinarily exciting to listen to - just like sitting in the orchestra.

Offline justininsf

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Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2015, 08:08:16 PM »
OK I really like the Bertini recording and think the sound is good, not natural per se, I hear more detail than I would in a performance in a large hall.  But sometimes I prefer that to a more natural sounding recording.

Offline Prospero

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Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2015, 07:44:29 AM »
There is a sonically improved version of the Horenstein Mahler 8 downloadable from Pristine Audio.

Tom in Vermont

Offline justininsf

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Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #55 on: May 05, 2015, 01:30:07 AM »
There is a sonically improved version of the Horenstein Mahler 8 downloadable from Pristine Audio.

Tom in Vermont

Have you heard it is it a large improvement over the BBC issue?

Offline Prospero

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Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2015, 02:28:19 PM »
The Pristine remastering is clearly superior to the now out of print BBC Legends version.Greater impact,dynamics, and extension of bass and treble.

Here is PR blurb from Pristine quoting Horenstein's cousin, who apparently asked Andrew Rose for the mastring



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HORENSTEIN conducts Mahler and Wagner - PASC440

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HORENSTEIN conducts Mahler and Wagner - PASC440-CD
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Overview

Soloists, choirs et al
London Symphony Orchestra
Royal Philharmonic Orchestra
Jascha Horenstein, conductor

Live and studio recordings, 1959 and 1962
Producer and XR Remastering: Andrew Rose
Cover artwork based on a photograph of Jascha Horenstein

WAGNER  Der fliegende Holländer - Overture
WAGNER  Tannhäuser - Bacchanale
WAGNER  Siegfried Idyll  Siegfried Idyll
MAHLER  Symphony No. 8 in E flat Major ("Symphony of a Thousand")

Total duration: 2hr 1:13 
©2015 Pristine Audio

    Description
    Tags
    Reviews

Horenstein's tremendous stereo Mahler 8 and Wagner in fabulous XR-remastered sound quality

 "Horenstein marshalled his forces with magnificent aplomb and obtained a quite outstandingly fine performance" - Daily Telegraph

 

 

    WAGNER  Der fliegende Holländer - Overture  [notes / score]
    WAGNER  Tannhäuser - Bacchanale  [notes / score]
    WAGNER  Siegfried Idyll  [notes / score]

    Recording producer: Charles Gerhardt
    Recording Engineer: Kenneth Wilkinson
    Recorded 29-30 September 1962 for Reader's Digest
    Walthamstow Town Hall

    Royal Philharmonic Orchestra
    Jascha Horenstein, conductor



    MAHLER  Symphony No. 8 in E flat Major ("Symphony of a Thousand") [notes / score]

    Joyce Barker (sop.I) - Magna Peccatrix
    Beryl Hatt (sop.II) - Mater Gloriosa
    Agnes Giebel (sop.III) - Una Poenitentium
    Kirsten Meyer (alt.I) - Mulier Samaritana
    Helen Watts (alt.II) - Maria Aegyptiaca
    Kenneth Neate (ten.) - Doctor Marianus
    Alfred Orda (bar.) - Pater Ecstaticus
    Arnold van Mill (bass) - Pater Profundus

    BBC Chorus; BBC Choral Society; Goldsmiths' Choral Union; Hampstead Choral Society; Emanuel School Boys' Choir; Orpington Junior Singers

    Musical Associate: Berthold Goldschmidt

    London Symphony Orchestra
    Hugh Maguire, leader; Charles Spinks, organ

    Jascha Horenstein, conductor

    Recorded for BBC broadcast, 20 March 1959, Royal Albert Hall, London


    Introduction to the broadcast by Deryck Cooke:

     

 



Historic Reviews


A DEDICATED PERFORMANCE OF MAHLER`S `EIGHTH`
Neville Cardus, The Guardian, 23rd March 1959


Mahler wrote of his cosmically-planned Eighth Symphony that in it the universe begins to vibrate and to sound. On Friday the Albert Hall was made more or less to vibrate with sound by 750 voices and instrumentalists engaged in a presentation of the work to an assembly which filled the enormous place from floor to topmost gallery. In the chorus were humans of all ages, children choiring like cherubim, more or less; venerable basses, and young girls at the spring of life. Eight soloists sustained the revolving world of Mahler`s aspirations standing there like supporting pillars. Jascha Horenstein controlled the apocalyptic structure firmly and purposefully, avoiding the occasional chasms and glimpses into vacancy, and scaling the heights without haste or waste of breadth.

At the end, the audience broke into tumultuous acclamation. Seldom, if ever, have I known in an English concert hall so tremendous a demonstration as this. No doubt Mahler`s apotheosis of heaven-storming brass and bells, heaven-arching sopranos and infant warblings, was partly responsible for the outbreak, but throughout the performance attention had been riveted and breathless, so we can assume that the roars of `Bravo` signified more than excitement due to an assault on the senses.

Horenstein encompassed the work with simple, impressive technical mastery. He indulged in no histrionic gestures. He did not attempt to persuade us that he was sharing with Mahler the labour pains of creation. He put himself devotedly at Mahler`s service, had faith in the music, and he had patience. It was a dedicated piece of conducting; indeed, the performance itself was dedicated and a great credit to all taking part. The young folk singing Mahler to Goethe`s German from the closing scene of `Faust` will surely remember this concert all their lives.

It is difficult in the Albert Hall for any conductor accurately to calculate nuance, subtle, change of tone. The wonderful finale, after a spell-bound intoning of the Chorus Mysticus - `Alles Vergangliches - All that is past of us` - failed to revoke the sense of floating rising melody when the `Mater Gloriosa` theme is wafted on the higher voices. The tempo was too deliberate. The dome of heaven was not revealed. There were no echoing reverberations. But Horenstein had no choice but to insist on the strictest rhythmical precision, no opportunity for the finest shading. He was conducting the symphony for the first time, with forces not familiar with words or music, which, in the Goethe section, might well have come to them as alien from contemporary English modes of thought, symbolism and feeling. There was, perhaps, a lack of string tension in the wonderful anchoritic orchestral introduction to Part 2; the familiar Mahler fingerprint of the appoggiatura and tremolo needed a more abandoned and passionate bowing.

Also, for want of the right understanding tenor, the beautiful if operatic invocation of Doctor Marianus short-circuited into sentimental prose. The only other important miscarriage in a remarkable performance was during the superb setting of Goethe`s terrific and elemental declamation by the Pater Profundus, from the depths. `Wie felsenabgrund mir zu Fussen -`At my feet a craggy chasm`. The fault was not so much the solo vocalist`s as one of orchestral playing a little over-careful.

But I make these critical points in no carping spirit. I wish only to be fair to Mahler, for magnificent though this interpretation was in bulk, it did not entirely give us the right voltage, the feeling of almost excruciating search for the right tone-symbols.

A remarkable point of Horenstein`s conducting is that he succeeded in holding together the first part, based on the medieval hymn, `Veni, Creator Spirits`, composed mainly in the starkest and most intricate polyphony, with challenges to high voices even more cruel than Beethoven`s in his choral apotheosis. Only by sweat of brow does Mahler invoke the Creator Spirit to dwell in our minds and strengthen our weak bodies. The aspiration is terrific, also the desperation.

The Latin text and the neo-classic vocal polyphony employed was not really instinctive in Mahler. We feel the release of strain as soon as Goethe enters, and the atmosphere of a German poetry and metaphysic is breathed. The work, in fact, is dichotomous; the two parts do not mingle, in spite of a closer thematic connection than is apparent even after much study of the score. For example, in three bars of the simple chorus of angels - the major themes of `Accende` and `Mater Gloriosa` are both sounded in some dozen notes.

The score is an amazing torrent of ideas, supplication, doubt, spiritual effort and exaltation wrestling like beasts with relaxations to quiet even miniature islands of escape, in which Mahler composes with a delicate touch prophetic of `Das Lied von der Erde`. At times, for instance, in the advent of the `Mater Gloriosa`, soaring on high, the violins and harp play the melody perilously saccharine and reminiscent of Gounod rather than Goethe.

But, all in all, Mahler in this work subdued his ego and by the will-to-believe, and out of his momentary ideal of universal brotherhood, composed his most objective music. A thousand pities that another performance could not follow at once on Friday`s, so closely did it get to the heart of the matter.

Langford should have been living to witness Mahler`s victory over thousands; he was the first to write of Mahler in this country nearly forty years ago. He was then alone in his advocacy.

 
 

750 PERFORM MAHLER'S 8th SYMPHONY: A VISION OF UNIVERSE
MARTIN COOPER, Daily Telegraph, 23 March 1959


Sheer size in the arts is not admired today and we ridicule the monster performances of the last century. Yet the magnitude of the forces employed by Mahler in his eighth symphony—not far short of a thousand— is a positive element in the character of the work.

The Albert Hall was crowded last night for a performance in which Jascha Horenstein conducted the London Symphony Orchestra, the B.B.C. Chorus and Choral Society, the Goldsmiths' Choral Union, the Hampstead Choral Society and two children's choirs— a total of over 750 performers.

The symphony is a vision of the metaphysical universe, a hymn of the whole creation, and its opening and closing choruses have a vast, cosmic quality hardly found in any other music.

Mahler's inspiration sometimes flags in between, but his intention never wavers even when its expression is theatrical (as in some of the solo hymns) or downright commonplace.


" FAUST " IMAGERY
Although the symphonic character of the music often disappears beneath the shifting, esoteric imagery of the second part of Goethe's " Faust " it still gives the work an underlying unity, which corresponds to Mahler's conception of the universe as intelligible and moral beneath the perpetual flux of exterior events.

Everything is extreme in the music. The range demanded of the voices is crueller than in Beethoven's Mass in D and the sonorities are either colossal or, at the other end of the scale, of a gossamer delicacy.

Mr. Horenstein marshalled his forces with magnificent aplomb and obtained a quite outstandingly fine performance. The strong octet of soloists included some unusually beautiful voices -- notably Joyce Barker, Agnes Giebel, Kerstin Meyer Kenneth Neate and Alfred Orda.

 

 

 


Producer's Note

I was urged by the conductor's cousin, Misha Horenstein, to tackle the BBC's splendid experimental stereo recording of Mahler's 8th Symphony, made with a single stereo microphone set-up in the vast, acoustically-untamed space of the Royal Albert Hall, in the hope that XR remastering might bring a greater focus and a better sense of the vastness of the forces employed. Perhaps a touch extra treble, depends on system etc. But more dynamics and presence indeed.

"I can't praise it highly enough. The difference is immediate from the opening bars, where the organ hits you where it should, in the stomach, but the gain is evident throughout. This is especially true of the bass line, which now has the depth and weight missing in the [previous issue]. Your remake also compliments the vertical and horizontal spaces of the Albert Hall, bringing the sound forward as though you are sitting in better seats than before..." came the response, to which I find little to add (beyond noting the high number of coughs I had to remove!).

https://www.pristineclassical.com/pasc440.html

Offline Prospero

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Re: Seeking Mahler 8 recommendations….
« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2015, 02:43:40 PM »
Apologies for the long post on the Pristine Horenstein Mahler 8. I meant only to copy the very end paragraphs.

Still, perhaps of interest.

Pristine is doing some of the best remastering of older recordings these days.

The Furtwängler 1950 La Scala Wagner Ring cycle, for instance, is far and away the best in sound. The performance, by the way, is Pope Francis's favorite of the Ring.

Tom in Vermont

 

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