Sibelius 2 recommendations - here's what I'm looking for

[barry guerrero]

I'm still not fully satisfied with any Sibelius 2 that I own. In the brass chorale at the end of the finale, I want a recording where both the tuba and horns are very clear. The horns are playing after-beats to every one else (accents off the beat). The tuba goes back and forth between D - D (in descending octave jump), G - D, D-D, G- D, etc. I want to hear that belted out. At the same time, I don't want the stupid trumpets to drown everything else out. I also don't want the timpanist to be building a garage at that point either (earlier on, yes).

The way I would balance it is trumpets, trombones and timpani forte; horns and tuba fortissimo (to compensate). Strings and woodwinds should stay out of the way at the point (mezzo forte would do). Why?    .   .    .  because symphony orchestras have waaaaay too frickin' many violins (which is why they should be divided left and right, among other reasons).

Can anyone steer to me something?

If I ran a major symphony orchestra, everybody would either love me or hate me because I would send the two back stands of first and second violins HOME for the entire season, WITH PAY, and fill the void with one or two extra bassoons (which you can never hear), a full-time extra horn and at least two harps at all times (four harps on really large works). Of course, these things depend greatly on what's being played. If were doing V-W's "Fantasia on Theme by Thomas Tallis", I want every string player in town.

[ChrisH]

Vanska and the Lahti Symphony are very good in all the Sibelius, his recordings with Minneapolis sound excellent but I find them a bit eccentric. Blomsted and Segarstam are excellent in 2nd. Recently I've been really enjoying John Storgards and the BBC Philharmonic. At some point, I will check out Paavo Berlgunds cycle.

[James Meckley]

I can recommend one that will satisfy you for the tuba, but probably not for the horns*. It also happens to be the greatest overall performance of the Second I've ever heard:

George Szell, Cleveland Orchestra, live on tour in Japan, 1970

This was a performance given just months before Szell died. For a long time it was available exclusively from the Cleveland Orchestra archives, but now it's available on a Japanese Blue-Spec CD in much-improved sound. Anyone who cares about Sibelius 2 should hear this recording.

*Don't you think the pitches written for the horn syncopes are pretty low to be expected to cut through the orchestral texture here?

James

[barry guerrero]

"Don't you think the pitches written for the horn syncopes are pretty low to be expected to cut through the orchestral texture here?"

Yes, but if you employ an assistant to the principle, that's five horns. I would have three of them play it as written (the note values) and have two of them just play 'stingers' at the start of each off-beat and then get out of the way. Those two can take big breaths between each stinger. That's something a college wind ensemble director - someone with a lot of time on their hands - would work out.

Yep, I've heard great things about the Szell/Cleveland S2 from their tour in Japan. I will try to find that one - I've been meaning to all along. And it doesn't surprise that Ron Bishop does a great job on the tuba part there.

I'm also going to pursue the Vaenska/Lahti S.O. S2 as well - maybe even the whole cycle.

I very much like Berglund in Sibelius, but I haven't been knocked out by any of the S2's that I've heard from him. Maybe I should give him another shot. I do like the various Colin Davis ones.

Thanks everyone for your recommendations - much appreciated.

[ChrisH]

I can recommend one that will satisfy you for the tuba, but probably not for the horns*. It also happens to be the greatest overall performance of the Second I've ever heard:

George Szell, Cleveland Orchestra, live on tour in Japan, 1970

This was a performance given just months before Szell died. For a long time it was available exclusively from the Cleveland Orchestra archives, but now it's available on a Japanese Blue-Spec CD in much-improved sound. Anyone who cares about Sibelius 2 should hear this recording.

*Don't you think the pitches written for the horn syncopes are pretty low to be expected to cut through the orchestral texture here?


Isn't this recording, considered by some, to be the 'best concert ever'?
James

[James Meckley]

Isn't this recording, considered by some, to be the 'best concert ever'?

That would be an unsupportable claim; I can appreciate their enthusiasm, however untenable their position. To my mind, the first half of the concert is well played but nothing out of the ordinary for Szell and the Clevelanders. It's in the second half that things really catch fire. As one reviewer wrote of the concert, "It starts unexceptionally, with a fine but not exactly earth-shattering Weber Oberon Overture, and a lithe and transparent Mozart 40th. Then the magic begins. From the very first bars of the Sibelius Second, it's clear that something extraordinary is happening. There follows a seismic performance, carved from granite, fire, and ice. Anyone who ever said that Szell lacks passion, please listen to this."

For the record, the entire concert consisted of:

Weber: Oberon Overture
Mozart: Symphony No. 40 in G Minor, KV 550
Sibelius: Symphony No. 2 in D Major, op. 43
Berlioz: "Rákóczy March" from The Damnation of Faust, op. 24

In addition to the Japanese Blue-Spec CD version I mentioned earlier, there's also a Japanese SA-CD release.

http://www.amazon.com/Live-Tokyo-1970-George-Szell/dp/B00005HS01

James

[barry guerrero]

Ouch! But maybe I should 'bite', regardless of the price tag. Thanks for that info.

I remember now that Andre Previn made an S2 in Pittsburgh for EMI (Angel) that REALLY brought out the after-beats in the horns in the final brass chorale. But that one has never been put on CD.

http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symphony-No-Pittsburgh-Orchestra/dp/B0038OCQXY

[barry guerrero]

here's some Youtube S2's

The Gothenburg tuba player blows his brains out for Dudamel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSp2ecoRyi8

OMG. Here's the Szell/Celveland one from Tokyo. There must have been a mike close to Ron Bishop, as he positively risks his life blowing that hard on a smaller tuba (probably his Alex). Awesome - I love Ron Bishop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL5ys4qnIy0


OK, here's Vaenska/Lahti. For me, this is it! Check out the end. The tuba starts softly (a big one though), but the string articulations are real clear. Then the horns enter with their after-beats, make a crescendo and then remain audible throughout. Trumpets and trombones DON'T blow their brains out when they play the big tune in octaves. The timpanist doesn't build a garage either. Very beautifully balanced!

The whole chorale has the feel of making a gradual crescendo to the final chord, instead of 'shooting everyone's wad' before the end. Very musically done. I like how the major third is brought out on the final chord.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPd9znWgGLk

[justininsf]

That's $70 from amazon, you can get it half price from another seller.  I know, that's not cheap either, but James really has me interested in hearing this piece Im not very familiar with.

[ChrisH]

Isn't this recording, considered by some, to be the 'best concert ever'?

That would be an unsupportable claim; I can appreciate their enthusiasm, however untenable their position. To my mind, the first half of the concert is well played but nothing out of the ordinary for Szell and the Clevelanders. It's in the second half that things really catch fire. As one reviewer wrote of the concert, "It starts unexceptionally, with a fine but not exactly earth-shattering Weber Oberon Overture, and a lithe and transparent Mozart 40th. Then the magic begins. From the very first bars of the Sibelius Second, it's clear that something extraordinary is happening. There follows a seismic performance, carved from granite, fire, and ice. Anyone who ever said that Szell lacks passion, please listen to this."



James

There was a funny, early internet argument, from Usenet or some news group back in the 90's. There were a few people who claimed that this is the best concert of all time and it turned into a troll-fest. When you posted about it, it brought that memory back. I've never heard it, but from what you've written it sounds exciting. 

[AZContrabassoon]

For many Sibelius fans, the most electrifying recording ever made of this symphony was the Royal Philharmonic led by Sir John Barbirolli. It's a unique, thoroughly exciting and thrilling reading. Not to be missed.

Regarding the original post about orchestral players. The reason it's hard to hear bassoons is not the number (really, doubling the number of players doesn't double the sound), but because the string sections are too damned big! Back in the 19th century string sections were not the monstrosities they became in the mid-20th century, especially in places likes Cleveland, Chicago, New York and Philadelphia. That's why the Bis recordings with Lahti/Vanska sound so good - it's a smaller string section, which the composer was familiar with. Also, modern string players all use steel strings which are much louder than gut. There were some conductors (Karajan for one) who regularly used four bassoons to balance his large orchestra. Most major orchestra have two harps, but there is a world-wide shortage of really good harpists.

I don't think Szell lacked passion, just a soul. He built a great orchestra, no doubt. But man, what a jerk!

[barry guerrero]

I agree. Sends a few stands home, with pay!

[James Meckley]

For many Sibelius fans, the most electrifying recording ever made of this symphony was the Royal Philharmonic led by Sir John Barbirolli. It's a unique, thoroughly exciting and thrilling reading. Not to be missed.

This is indeed a great recording, much more satisfying than his later (1966) recording with the Hallé Orchestra on EMI. There's another Barbirolli Sibelius 2 circulating in the audio underground that's even a bit more passionate than his 1962 RPO recording: a tape of a live performance he gave with the Boston Symphony in 1964. Unfortunately, the sound isn't nearly as good as Wilkinson and Gerhardt achieved for him with the RPO in 1962.

James

[Roland Flessner]

Barry, looking at the score, I suspect that your argument is with the composer and not with conductors, musicians or sound engineers. The tuba and horn parts are marked fortissimo, while the melody instruments (trumpets with trombones an octave lower) are triple forte. Also, it will be difficult for the tuba to stand out since it is doubled by bassoons as well as low strings playing tremolos, which will soften the character of the sound even if it adds decibels.

I spot checked the recordings I have on hand (Vanska/Lahti, Maazel/VPO, Kurt Sanderling/Berlin Symphony, Karajan/BPO, Davis/BSO, Horst Stein/OSR [on vinyl], Paray/Detroit), and while I think all are effective, Lahti, Maazel and Davis come closest to meeting your desires. Nobody's tympanist is not building a garage, perhaps merely a garden shed.

I haven't listened to Sibelius symphonies for a while, but I'm not really dissatisfied with any of these, and I'll put in a good word for Sanderling: strong performances captured in good sound.

[barry guerrero]

You're right, I believe the dynamics should be switched, and nobody should be marked triple forte - it's not necessary there.