Mahler's Eighth's Berlin premiere?

[SPrim]

Hi,

I am trying to find more information about the Berlin premiere of Mahler's Eighth, supposedly in 1922. Does anyone happen to know the conductor and orchestra? Thank you so much!

SPrim

[barry guerrero]

It probably wasn't with the Berlin Phil. since 1922 was Arthur Nikisch's last year in Berlin, and Furtwaengler took over in the 1922-23 season. I don't think it was Oskar Fried either; 1922 was the year that Fried first conducted in post-revolutionary Russia. He was greeted at the St. Petersburg train station by Lenin himself.

1922 was also the year that Richard Specht's ground breaking book on Mahler came out. His publisher was based in Berlin.

I know that Anton Webern gave the Vienna premiere of Mahler 8 (1926, I think). I'm wondering if he might have also conducted it in Berlin (?).

I'm wondering if Fritz Stiedry is a possibility. Mahler helped to launch his career, and he was at the Berlin Opera at that time. Stiedry claimed that he had conducted EVERYTHING. He was scheduled to give the world premiere of the Shostakovich 4th symphony, but Shostakovich withdrew the work.

I'm thinking that Scherchen could be a possibility, but I can't any reference to him doing M8 except for the Vienna Phil. performance from 1951.

[SPrim]

Thank you for some educated guesses, barry guerrero! I think my source about the Berlin premiere in 1922 might be wrong. According to Mahler and His World, edited by Karen Painter, the Eighth was premiered in 1912 (p. 146). I still don't know who conducted and who performed the work in 1922 though.

[barry guerrero]

I still can't find anything about Berlin, but you might find this paragraph from Wikipedia interesting.

"During the next three years (after 1910), according to the calculations of Mahler's friend Guido Adler the Eighth Symphony received a further 20 performances across Europe.[34] These included the Dutch premiere, in Amsterdam under Willem Mengelberg on 12 March 1912,[33] and the first Prague performance, given on 20 March 1912 under Mahler's former Vienna Hofoper colleague, Alexander von Zemlinsky.[35] Vienna itself had to wait until 1918 before the symphony was heard there"

Interesting. I've found references to Anton Webern doing M8 in Wien in 1926. Did he also do the 1918 Viennese premiere? Mengelberg must have conducted it several times, as he certainly performed it during the famous 1920 Dutch Mahler festival at the Concertgebouw.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._8_(Mahler)

Ahhhh, here's your answer: Mengelberg

https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2448

[waderice]

Barry,

Here is proof from the Wiener Philharmoniker database on the first performance of M8 in Vienna:

http://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/concerts/concert-detail/event-id/5847

Performer details are given as well.

I haven't yet been able to locate a similar performance database for the Berlin Philharmonic, unless someone here is able to provide a URL for one.  James Meckley, might you be that individual?

Wade

[waderice]

Authoritative update from Sybille Werner at the Facebook Mahler Group, who conducts Mahler performance research and other Mahler-related research, and who assists Henri-Louis de la Grange in his Mahler research:

The first Berlin Philharmonic performance of M8 was on May 17, 1912, conducted by Willem Mengelberg.  Two further Berlin Philharmonic performances were conducted on May 18 and 19 of the same year, by a conductor I've never heard of, Georg Göhler.

Instead of the Vienna Philharmonic performing the first performance of M8 in Vienna, Bruno Walter conducted the first performance of the work on March 12, 14, and 15, 1912, with the Konzertverein Orchestra.

Wade

[barry guerrero]

Wait, are you saying that Bruno Walter conducted Mahler 8 early in his career!?!

[waderice]

Wait, are you saying that Bruno Walter conducted Mahler 8 early in his career!?!

That's according to what Sybille Werner told me at the Facebook Mahler Group.  I got out my copy of the multi-CD Urlicht pre-war Mahler recordings set to see what she said about Walter's first performance(s) of M8 in her thorough essay booklet that accompanies the set.  She said on p. 56 of her essay that Walter performed M8 14 times in Vienna in five sets - 1912, 1921, 1923, 1933, and 1936.  That would further corroborate her assertion of Walter's first performance of M8 with the Vienna Konzertverein Orchestra in 1912.

Wade

[barry guerrero]

Bizarre. Why would such an important 'fact' not be  more 'common knowledge'?

It also makes me wonder why Walter - assuming that this information is true - never revisited M8 in the U.S. or after WWII.

[waderice]

It also makes me wonder why Walter - assuming that this information is true - never revisited M8 in the U.S. or after WWII.

Knowing that Walter eventually got to the U.S. prior to WWII and pretty much stayed here thereafter, my speculative guess is that out of respect to the art of the man who was responsible for helping make him famous as he had become in the world's opera houses and concert halls, Walter likely became very sensitive to how people in the U.S. perceived M8's performance requirements.  When it became rather evident on this side of the Atlantic with everyone seemingly taking to heart that it was a "Barnum and Bailey show" which stuck ever since its first performance, Walter quite possibly believed that, and didn't want to perform it as a spectacle in the vulgar sense of the word.  And not knowing for sure how Walter felt later on about Stokowski's highly-publicized first performance of the work in America in 1916,  it's possible that Walter disliked Stokowski's motives in wanting to perform the work.

Wade

[SPrim]

I am glad to learn about the performances of Mahler Eighth in the 1910s by Mengelberg, Walter, and Göhler.

Wade, thank you so much for asking Sybille Werner. I just requested an article by her: Sybille Werner, “The Performance History of Mahler’s Orchestral Works between His Death in 1911 and the Anniversary Years of 1960/61,” in After Mahler’s Death, 117-131. (Olomouc: Univerzita Palackého (Filozofická Fakulta), 2013.) Hopefully it has more information about other performances of Mahler Eighth.

[barry guerrero]

"Knowing that Walter eventually got to the U.S. prior to WWII and pretty much stayed here thereafter, my speculative guess is that out of respect to the art of the man who was responsible for helping make him famous as he had become in the world's opera houses and concert halls, Walter likely became very sensitive to how people in the U.S. perceived M8's performance requirements.  When it became rather evident on this side of the Atlantic with everyone seemingly taking to heart that it was a "Barnum and Bailey show" which stuck ever since its first performance, Walter quite possibly believed that, and didn't want to perform it as a spectacle in the vulgar sense of the word.  And not knowing for sure how Walter felt later on about Stokowski's highly-publicized first performance of the work in America in 1916,  it's possible that Walter disliked Stokowski's motives in wanting to perform the work"

Maybe. That's a little thin, but I can't come up with a better answer. Maybe Walter was just jealous. Let's start from the top.

"When it became rather evident on this side of the Atlantic with everyone seemingly taking to heart that it was a 'Barnum and Bailey show' "

Who? Who's "everyone" and why did it matter what they thought? More to the point, what's wrong with M8 being thought of as a B&B Show? Mahler himself performed it with close to a thousand people.

" it's possible that Walter disliked Stokowski's motives in wanting to perform the work"

Huh? What motives? Stoki performed it with a thousand people - jut like Mahler - in Philly and Carnegie Hall. People came; everyone liked it; it made money; everyone went home happy, so where's the problem?

My point is simply that if Walter had some problem with that, then it was HIS problem. I can't see where Stokowski did anything evil or devious.

I would guess that another possibility is that Walter simply stopped believing in the work. Look at all the times he did Mahler 4 in post-war Vienna. I'm sure if he had said, "for old times sake, let's get over the war by doing a performance of Mahler 8 instead", I'm sure the Vienna Phil. would have gladly cooperated. Just a thought.

[waderice]

Who? Who's "everyone" and why did it matter what they thought? More to the point, what's wrong with M8 being thought of as a B&B Show? Mahler himself performed it with close to a thousand people.

"Everyone" is the general public, anyone who wanted to hear the work live, because of its enormous forces and the huge sound, not necessarily for its artistic merits.

Huh? What motives? Stoki performed it with a thousand people - jut like Mahler - in Philly and Carnegie Hall. People came; everyone liked it; it made money; everyone went home happy, so where's the problem?

Same reason I originally gave - the "Barnum and Bailey Show" aspect.  Walter had deep respect for Mahler the man, his art, this work in particular and probably didn't want it to be thought of, and degraded in such a fashion because of its sheer size.

My point is simply that if Walter had some problem with that, then it was HIS problem. I can't see where Stokowski did anything evil or devious.

I agree with you 100% on this.

[waderice]

I am glad to learn about the performances of Mahler Eighth in the 1910s by Mengelberg, Walter, and Göhler.

Wade, thank you so much for asking Sybille Werner. I just requested an article by her: Sybille Werner, “The Performance History of Mahler’s Orchestral Works between His Death in 1911 and the Anniversary Years of 1960/61,” in After Mahler’s Death, 117-131. (Olomouc: Univerzita Palackého (Filozofická Fakulta), 2013.) Hopefully it has more information about other performances of Mahler Eighth.

It's quite possible that you may find much the same information in that article as likely is in Sybille's essay in the booklet with the Urlicht pre-war Mahler recordings I mention above.  Share with us what interesting facts you find.

Wade

[barry guerrero]

I'm not wanting to question Sybille Werner as an 'authority' but I do find it slightly hard to believe that Walter conducted M8 in Vienna in five different years prior to the Anschluss, yet this fact isn't better known in a 'common knowledge' way. I'm wondering if she could possibly mean M2 instead (?).