Solti's Chicago DLvdE

[Settembrini]

Hi everyone,

Any thoughts on Solti's first recording of Das Lied von der Erde with the CSO, René Kollo and Yvonne Minton? Solti's later RCO DLvdE was marred by the inadequate singing and diction of Lipovsek but I really liked the orchestral playing and Decca's sound (but I confess, I am a Solti admirer..). Unfortunately, this DLvdE isn't part of the complete CSO set of the symphonies. Just wondering what your thoughts are (besides the usual stale cliché's about Solti being 'too hard driven/lacking warmth' etc.. ).

[waderice]

This particular DLvdE recording was one of the couple that I had on reel-to-reel and which I sold, after transferring it to CD.  I also transferred Solti's LSO recordings of Symphonies 1-3 and 9, RCOA recording of no. 4, and CSO recordings of 5-8 to CD before selling them.  To answer your question, I didn't find anything special about this recording worth writing home about.  Others may find more worthwhile about it than I did.

Wade

[barryguerrero]

The best thing about it is the tam-tam. Principal percussionist Gordon Peters borrowed Fred Beckman's personal dining room tam-tam (40" Wuhan) specifically for this recording. They were very close friends. Fred Beckman was the first to import Wuhan tam-tams (Chau gongs) from China after trade relations had opened. He sold tam-tams to nearly all the major orchestras in America, including the 50" (130cm) Wuhan that the Pittsburgh Symphony now owns. True story.

[Roland Flessner]

+1 on Barry's comments. The tamtam is one of the most impressive on records. The singing is middling, and Solti is Solti--sometimes ham fisted and incapable of illuminating Mahler's counterpoint.

I had this recording on vinyl years ago, then gave it away. I didn't think it had been released on CD, but I found a copy in Minneapolis on my recent trip.

[Settembrini]

Personally, the tam tam is the last thing I care about in DLvdE, but I'm glad it sounds good! Kollo does just fine, better than for von Karajan and I prefer Minton's cool and slightly detached singing to Ludwig's crooning on both the Klemperer and the Karajan recordings. I think Solti does a great job (as usual in Mahler) and I wonder to which moments you are referring to when you say that he is 'incapable of illuminating Mahler's counterpoint?'

[AZContrabassoon]

I have mixed feelings about Solti's Mahler - some of it's good, some great, some so-so. I prefer his early LSO versions of M1 and M2 over the Chicago remakes. Some people say he's too loud, fast, vulgar - whatever. But it sure is exciting! Solti was not one those micromanaging conductors - he saw the big picture and trusted the composer (and recording engineer) to make the score sound "right". The micromanagers (Rattle) like to bring out counterpoint that may lie somewhat hidden in an artificial way.

 I wish that the good people at Decca would do one of two things: collect all of his Mahler (LSO and Chicago + remakes + DLVDE) into one nice package, OR, put them all on one Bluray  disk like they've done for his Ring, and the Kertesz Dvorak cycle.

I have a friend of whom I am deeply jealous on one account: he lived in Chicago in the 70s through the early 90s and attended the CSO concerts. He heard some great Mahler that will likely never happen again: not only the Solti concerts, but significant Mahler with Abbado, Levine, Haitink and a Bernstein M2 that he says is scorched on his brain forever.

[Settembrini]

You're absolutely right, Decca should include all Solti's Mahler recordings in one box so you don't need to buy the LSO 1, 2, 3 and 9, the (R)CO 4 , the later 5 from the Musikverein and the two LvdE's  seperately. Yes, Solti could be loud and vulgar, but so could Mahler. When Bernstein hams it up (his later DGG recordings are almost unlistenable, with the possible exception of 2, 3 and 7) it's the 'authentic Mahler sound' (to many people at least), when Solti does it, it's 'vulgar.' It seems to me that Solti's Mahler recordings (and his recordings in general) have aged much better than Bernstein's and most of von Karajan's. Just compare Solti's late Mozart symphonies with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe, or his Mozart Requiem, to the Mozart a la Montovani from Bernstein and Karajan.

[AZContrabassoon]

But in contrast, as I get on in years, it's Karajan's Ring that I now prefer to the once supreme Solti. Sir Georg was sure hot property 30-40 years ago, but it seems to me his star has fallen and his recordings not so well known. He wasn't great at everything (who is?), but surely his Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler, Strauss and Bruckner are worth serious attention.

[Roland Flessner]

When I discovered Mahler, it was usually through Solti's recordings (LSO M2 and 9, CSO 5, 6, 7 and . In those days, my college years, I really liked them. Now, other than DLvDE, I own only 7, a fine performance until the finale, when it turns into an exploding cigar. All the others have been donated when I need to clear shelf space.

Now I find Solti to be somewhere between uninteresting and unlistenable, regardless of composer. I loved that M6 in the late '70s, but now it just sounds frisky where it should be intense. In general, Solti's conducting seems to obscure, rather than reveal, the expressive content of Mahler.

I have the box set of the Solti/CSO Bruckner symphonies, and I keep it only because for some reason, FYE was selling it for $20, and it doesn't take up much shelf space. I will concede that the Scherzo of the Third is a terrific, fire-breathing performance with the CSO at its best.

Decca's SQ, with its unnatural perspective in most cases, didn't help. The tympani often sound as though they were in front of the stage. And I'll insist that counterpoint is at the heart of Mahler's music, and recordings that obscure it fail at a fundamental level.

Which reminds me that several years ago I attended WFMT's all-day seminar on Mahler, led by Bill McGlaughlin of Exploring Music fame. During one of the breaks, we were chatting, and he recommended some of the Abbado/Berlin recordings. Our conversation went like this:

Me: The Berlin Phil is a great orchestra, but they are wrong for Mahler, too blended. Mahler is all counterpoint, and the instruments must sound as discrete voices.

Bill: Are you a composer?

Me: No.

Bill: Well, you have a twisted mind, like a composer.

I will close with my disclaimer that these views are solely mine, that they reflect only one person's preference, and that I do not wish to cast aspersions on anyone's appreciation of Solti's Mahler.

[Settembrini]

How interesting, I discovered Mahler through Haitink's recordings and performances in the Concertgebouw and I loved them. Now I find them bland and boring and now I prefer Solti..
I agree with AZContrabassoon that Solti's Ring hasn't aged well and that Karajan's recording is supreme, but for me his star hasn't fallen. Uninteresting and unlistenable? His Strauss opera's (especially Salome, Elektra and Frau Ohne Schatten) are still the greatest recordings of these works ever made, his early Verdi recordings (Aïda and Otello) are wonderful as well. He was one of the few conductors who got Bruckner 6 right and his 9th with the CSO is a masterpiece. His Mozart (his second Cosí and his Zauberflöte with the Vienna Phil) is better than any late Mozart's by Bernstein and Karajan, etc..
Of course, these views are solely mine as well, and I do not wish to cast aspersions on anyone's blind hatred of Solti (who, I'm sure, wasn't deaf..)

[barryguerrero]

He was close to deaf in his late years. I can't reveal my source but it's first hand info. I think his early Mahler is definitely better. He never did do a decent M3 - it was just too outside of his fach. The M7, recorded at Champagne-Urbana, sounds gorgeous and was very good for the first four movements, but the finale is a total train wreck. The timpanist can't play the opening flourish at his tempo and the rest is pretty much downhill. His M8 is technically very good for its time, but leaves me completely cold. In short, there's little music in it.

I have several main issues with his highly touted 8th. First and foremost, there's a huge mismatch between the soft edged singing of the Viennese choirs and the hard, aggressive brass playing (as is the norm with those guys). Second, while Solti's all-star lineup of soloists are certainly up to the job, they're also very operatic in quality. Compare them to the more 'oratorio like' lineup that Kubelik had (the best overall cast, in my opinion). Three, the ending of Part II has tons of brass and organ, but very little percussion. It's difficult to hear to hear the tam-tam at all . Four, the dubbed-in organ is out of sync in a couple of spots in Part I. Five, I find his conducting of Part I a bit too tidy, purposeful and succinct. Yet, he also allowed his soloists to just wallow all over the place after Part I's fast opening. I find it to be too much of a contrast and a bit unmusical.

For those early days, I truly prefer M8 recordings from Abravanel, Kubelik and Bernstein (in spite a bit of distortion on the Bernstein). Even the slightly bland Haitink sounds pretty good on its Pentatone reissue. Better still is the video of a live Haitink/Concertgebouw M8 that's on Youtube, but has yet to have been issued on dvd. Then, of course, there's always the 1959 Horenstein from Royal Albert Hall. That's pretty hard to beat for those early decades (and fairly hard to beat now!).

[Settembrini]

I would love to know your source, but he didn't seem deaf during the rehearsals I attended (the concerts were a let down, I have to admit) in the '90's. At least he wasn't senile, like Giulini or Sanderling at the end of their careers.

To me, both of Haitink's Mahler 8's are the musical equivalent of a lobotomy, maybe because he (as he has admitted) simply doesn't like the piece (neither do I, by the way). I understand what you say about the Solti M7, the finale is a train wreck, but that's mostly Mahler's fault. I like how Solti doesn't want to make sense of a piece that makes no sense anyway.

[barryguerrero]

"but that's mostly Mahler's fault. I like how Solti doesn't want to make sense of a piece that makes no sense anyway"

Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. Even among CSO recordings of M7, both Levine and Abbado do a much better with the finale. Among the 'meaningless'  Mahler recordings that have come out, I think Markus Stenz has the best finale of anybody, but my favorite 'overall' M7 recordings - from start to finish - would include Barenboim/Berlin Staatskapelle (believe it or not) and Jonathan Nott (Tudor). I love Mahler 7 and that includes its wacky, 'send up' finale. I have a very good pirate of a live Nagano/DSO Berlin M7 too.

[Settembrini]

It seems we finally agree, I love Mahler 7 as well.. In fact, it's probably my favourite, if I had to choose. The fact that the finale doesn't make any sense (which I believe it doesn't) is one of the reasons why I love it more than the technically more acomplished 6th.
Personal favourites are Kondrashin live with the RCO, Abbado with the CSO, Chailly with the RCO (mostly for the sound) and, yes, Solti.. 

[barryguerrero]

Yes, yes and yes. However, I like the finale better on Abbado's Berlin remake. The deep bells are much clearer at the end. In addition, the second Nachtmusik is a full minute quicker (which I like).

Other good M7 recordings I own:  Inbal/Czech Phil./Exton, which sounds and feels like an 'original cast recording'; the De Waart/Netherlands Phil. one from the Concertgebouw (nothing second rate there!). Even the zippy Gergiev one is good for the fine brass playing of the LSO. Of early vintage, I like the original Bernstein/N.Y.   

I'm not a fan of Mariss Jansons' Mahler in general, but he made a very good M7 with the Oslo Phil. (Simax) and his BRSO one isn't bad either. Some people make a big deal of the Michael Gielen M7, but I prefer the Gary Bertini - particularly his TMSO remake from Tokyo - for that type of performance.

But Markus Stenz has, for me, the finale to end all finales. The same is true of his M8 recording. Klemperer?   .    .   .  sorry, I just can't listen to that.