CSO - still stuck with Muti and a less than great sounding hall.

[barryguerrero]

My subject title says it all. IMHO, the CSO is the most overrated orchestra on the planet. That may greatly have to do with their choices in conductors and the less than superb hall. Your thoughts (?).

[erikwilson7]

Honestly, as someone who is from the Chicagoland area, I don’t disagree with you. I found their choice of Muti’s appointment odd, and their concert seasons have been less-than-interesting the past few years. Since they’re a big name orchestra they tend to have excellent guest conductors, however.

I mentioned on a different thread that I actually saw Honeck conduct Mahler’s Fifth, and that was overall a pretty exciting performance, but one would expect to be blown away by the potential of that combination and I wasn’t.

I also mentioned somewhere else that I saw Andres Orozco-Estrada conduct the Third in a Friday matinee and I was less than impressed. It may have been in part due to the conducting, but the performance itself had many, many errors. I was expecting much more out of the “famous” CSO brass and they didn’t deliver.

It’s even been a while since the CSO released a hit recording. My college percussion professor played bass drum in the CSO-Resound of Mahler’s Third under Haitink, and he even said that the recording should have gone much better.

I love the CSO, and no offense to them but it doesn’t come as a huge surprise to me that their organization is having so many difficulties these days. I don’t know if it’s entirely Muti’s fault, but they need to pick themselves back up.

[Leo K]

Over the years, to my surprise, Solti's Mahler 8 has become great to my ears (I originally hated it) - it's probably my favorite CSO recording.

[barryguerrero]

My issues with the Solti M8: a mismatch between the rounded, soft-edged singing of the Viennese choirs and the hard, almost brittle brass sound; the organ being out-of-sync at one critical spot in Part I; too little percussion at the end of Part II (in relation to all the other noise going on); a high level recording with not enough dynamic range to get the sense of ever increasing layers of sound. As a result, it all comes off as highly polished, loud and a bit cold and brittle (to me, anyway). Yes, the cast is very good. Although, I do think some of them over-sing at spots.

For an M8 of those earlier times, I much prefer the Bernstein/LSO, in spite of obvious distortion at peaks. Horenstein is hard to beat as well, although that's even earlier. For an M8 made just a few years after the Solti, I think the dvd of Benstein/V.P.O. doing it in Wien's larger Konzerthaus blows it right out of the water. Again, that's just me.

[barryguerrero]

I'm not in Chicago, so it's not really fair for me to act as an authority. However, the recordings that Muti has made in Chicago don't really float my boat. They're good and little beyond good.

[erikwilson7]

Now that you mention it, you’re absolutely right about Symphony Center’s poor acoustics. I’ve performed there, and the hall is not designed well acoustically. Going back to my former percussion professor who is in the CSO, I remember him saying that the reason the CSO’s brass has a longstanding reputation for being superior (loud, honestly) is because they are forced to project so much in a hall with poor acoustics. The sound waves either don’t carry well into the audience or, on the contrary, carry too well and are completely absorbed by the amount of bodies in the room because of the architectural design.

I sat up in the balconies for Honeck/M5 and the acoustics didn’t carry well at all up to me. I pretty much listened to the whole performance at what sounded like “low volume.”

[barryguerrero]

Yes, and I think acknowledging that there's an issue with the acoustics is the first step to some day coming up with a solution, or getting a new hall altogether. No offense meant by this - it's mostly the fault of generations before you in Chicago - but there's been this, 'Chicago can do no wrong' attitude that has the kept the orchestra from addressing obvious shortcomings, such as a less than stellar woodwind section. As I've said before, people who move out west from Chicago, immediately start telling you how wonderful Chicago is. People who move to the left coast from Cleveland, immediately begin apologizing for Cleveland. That difference speaks volumes.

[barryguerrero]

Eric, I see that Jaap van Zwden is going to do Mahler 6 with the CSO. His Dallas recording of it is really good.

[erikwilson7]

Despite what we’ve said about the CSO, I am looking forward to what they have in store in terms of Mahler. Barry, you mentioned the Sixth with Jaap van Zweden and that should be good. I’ll have to check out that recording too.

I’m trying to see Marin Alsop conduct M8 with the CSO at Ravinia Festival this summer. That’s quite an opportunity and I’ll be sure not to miss it. Her recording of Mahler 1 was pretty good.

And then finally, Susanna Mälkki is conducting the Fourth with Camilla Tilling as the soprano. Those are two names I’m entirely unfamiliar with.

[Prospero]

I am not part of the CSO scene. It may be that Muti is strongest in Italian opera as shown in some of his opera concert performances. Certainly the "Falstaff" from a couple of seasons ago was terrific.  It was broadcast but not issued so far as ai know on CD/SACD. One very experienced musician that I know placed his "Falstaff" as equal to the great Toscanini Salzburg 1937 and NBC 1950 versions.

I know this is a Mahler site and not many here hold Verdi in the esteem he has for me. But the Muti "Falstaff" and earlier "Macbeth" are major achievements in my view.

He may not be the conductor for the broad Germanic repertory. But he does have major virtues in some areas.

[barryguerrero]

No arguments from me on that point. "Falstaff" is my favorite Verdi. Eric, Susanna Malkki is supposed to be quite good. And seeing Alsop do M8 at Ravinia should be quite a treat. Enjoy.

[waderice]

This was before my time moving to the Philly area, but I understand that Muti wasn't appreciated all that much while he was in Philly.  As to exactly what the basis for the problem(s) were, I don't know.

Wade

[Roland Flessner]

Most good halls are shoeboxes, but Orchestra Hall is egg shaped. The sound tends to travel straight up, and before the most recent remodel (late '90s), the Gallery, or top balcony, featured better sound than in most seats on the main floor, at about a quarter the ticket price. For the remodel, a large (and ugly) acoustic reflector was suspended over the orchestra. Before, the sound was dim and foggy in the balcony below the Gallery; it is noticeably clearer now, but at a cost. Because the reflector acts as a huge microphone, the sound is never really pianissimo even when the musicians are playing at the edge of silence, and in the Gallery it's generally harsh.

Part of the problem, I suspect, is that the hall does not contain enough cubic feet of air for a large orchestra, and if the musicians play too loudly, the sound can become a colorless sludge. Even at low and moderate levels, I've never heard a rich, mellow string tone anywhere in the hall, and that is not the fault of the players. The conductor really matters: Haitink has a knack for scaling the sound to the hall and his performances remain transparent even in the louder tuttis. I heard a night-and-day difference between M9s with first Barenboim, then later Haitink conducting. Under Barenboim the sound was a harsh grey haze, but that never happened in the Haitink performance.

Under studio conditions, recording companies had a fighting chance of showing the orchestra in a good light. But now that virtually all their recordings are live, the potential for decent sound is severely limited.

As for Muti, I've been to just two or three of his performances here, not because I'm trying to avoid him, but because he is often playing uninteresting repertoire. However, I think he a much more mature conductor than he was in Philly. In one concert I heard Haydn 101 (a work I love dearly), and was astonished by the quality of the performance, nor would I have guessed that Muti would show much affinity for Haydn. The program included "Feste romane," and sure, it's trashy, but the performance was terrific, with the orchestra in top form.

Then too, in Philly Muti showed an affinity for Berlioz that I find surprising. While the sound is admittedly thick and Germanic, allowing for that his recordings of "Symphonie fantastique" and "Romeo" are surprisingly idiomatic.

Finally, I heard M9 in last Saturday's MSO concert with de Waart. Excellent on all counts, though he did spoil Mahler's joke near the end of II when he slowed down gracefully rather than abruptly near the end. Locals tell me that the orchestra improved a lot under Andreas Delfs, and that de Waart brought it to a new level. The MSO has played superbly in a number of concerts I've attended in recent years.

And if that's not enough, they even seem to have upgraded their tamtam. Previously it sounded like a large cymbal, but last weekend it was atmospheric in the soft strokes and most powerful in the big collapse i I.

[barryguerrero]

Thank you Roland. You've shared truly excellent insight into a topic I've long been interested in: the acoustical tendencies or 'properties' of Orchestra Hall, and how it has impacted the orchestra itself. I believe that Chicago will eventually need to address this issue for real. Band Aid attempts don't seem to be the answer (as they've found out in New York!). Do you think these shortcomings can be remedied, or do you think a new hall is in order? Obviously, these are very good players and they deserve to be heard in the best possible light.

[Roland Flessner]

You're welcome, Barry!

Orchestra Hall is hopeless, and each remodel merely repositions the deck chairs on the Titanic. Given the lack of available real estate in downtown Chicago, not to mention the impressive sum already spent on the late-'90s remodel, I doubt the CSO will be playing in a different hall anytime soon.

After the c. 1967 remodel, RCA almost never recorded there again, favoring Medinah Temple, where Decca made almost all of its Solti recordings. (That hall is now gone; only the facade remains after the interior was gutted for a redevelopment.) Solti recorded M7 in the Foellenger Great Hall of the Krannert Center on the U of I campus in Champaign. I've heard several concerts there and acoustics are indeed excellent. I need to go back . . .

Just a few blocks from Orchestra Hall we have the Auditorium Theater, designed by Louis Sullivan. Acoustics there are superb, and visiting orchestras used to play there occasionally, but now everything is played in Orchestra Hall. Thus a really distinctive ensemble like Staatskapelle Dresden can be made to sound like a ho-hum community orchestra.

Just across Michigan Avenue is Millennium Park, site of the Harris Theater. It's an outstanding venue for ensembles up to medium size, but is too small for a large orchestra. If it had been made larger, it could have been a real jewel for the city and a great home for the CSO. But, like any sane person or organization, the CSO is careful to steer clear of Chicago politics, and who can blame them?

Moving right along, beginning with the 2020-21 season, the Milwaukee Symphony will leave the Marcus Center in favor of the Grand Theater, which is being remodeled. I hope the acoustics are as good as at Marcus. Also, this fall Ken-David Masur (son of Kurt) takes over as music director.