Bertini revisited

[chalkpie]

OK - I pulled the trigger on The Bertini Box...32.90 including shipping.

How about telling us where you found it at this price?  That's around 12 bucks cheaper than Amazon.com.

Wade

It was Amazon, but through one of their vendors. The shipping time takes longer in most cases but the cost savings in nice

[Roland Flessner]

On Beethoven:
I am now up to 18 complete sets, and I will cheerfully admit that this is pathological. Two outstanding sets that I don't think have turned up in this thread are Vanska/Minnesota/BIS and Dausgaard/Swedish Chamber Orchestra/SIMAX. Both conductors show strong period-practice influences--fleet tempos, antiphonally divided violin sections and low strings on the left--with solid orchestral playing captured in fine sound. Dausgaard is a bit more adventurous, but his recordings are on seven individual discs that are expensive to order new and hard to find in the US. I was patient and waited for reasonably priced copies to turn up on Amazon Marketplace. Vanska occasionally sells for $30 at ArkivMusic, an irresistible bargain.

I agree that the Blomstedt set is superb, and it's sad that so few of his other recordings are currently available. As is common with central European orchestras, the Dresdeners play with a sense of unanimity that is really satisfying.

I like Zinman's Zurich cycle a lot, though I wish he had divided his violin sections (as he did in the Mahler cycle). I'm not sure I'd pick any of his performances as a particular favorite, but they are bright, lively and fresh. The first movement of his Ninth struck me as absurdly rushed at first, but I got used to it and came to enjoy it.

Gardiner strikes me as undercharacterized, even allowing for the scrawny period-size orchestra. Toward the other end of the spectrum, the Czech Phil sounds magnificent for Paul Kletzki, though frequent and gratuitous tempo changes in the Eroica are bothersome. Eventually I'll slim down my Beethoven sets, but you couldn't pry that one from my cold, dead fingers. Nor could you relieve me of Jochum/Concertgebouw, music making on the highest level.

On Bertini:
I have the box set and agree that it represents a compelling and consistent view of the works, all in all very satisfying performances. But in my recent M9 obsession, I was troubled by the opacity of the recording. In particular, the first movement's elaborate counterpoint in the strings seemed to turn into mush, a pity in a passionate and intense reading.

[John Kim]

On Bertini:
I have the box set and agree that it represents a compelling and consistent view of the works, all in all very satisfying performances. But in my recent M9 obsession, I was troubled by the opacity of the recording. In particular, the first movement's elaborate counterpoint in the strings seemed to turn into mush, a pity in a passionate and intense reading.

EXACTLY!!

That's what I have been saying about the Bertini M9th all these years!

The sound is so opaque to the point that the many counterpoint lines are blended rather than distinct.

Too bad because the orchestra plays brilliantly with total conviction.

In this regard, Bertini's remake with Tokyo Metropolitan Orch. is much better in the sound if not in the execution.

John

[barry guerrero]

You can't 'hear' all those distinct contrapuntal lines in the strings anyway, regardless of how un-blended you can make them sound. Well, I can't. Maybe others can. It's like Mahler became Strauss all of a sudden.

[Damfino]

On Beethoven:
I am now up to 18 complete sets, and I will cheerfully admit that this is pathological.

I looked at my post on the Beethoven sets and realize that it is mostly untrue now. Of the sets I mentioned back then, I only kept the Blomstedt and sold off the rest. In addition to Blomstedt (which I still play), I currently have:

Bohm, VPO: recorded in the early 70s, the sound quality and playing of the VPO are awesome. The 5th is a little slack, but the rest are great. The 7th is on a par with Kleiber's, IMO. His 6th is highly regarded, but I don't like the "blaring" horns in the 3rd movement (I don't like them in Szell's recording either).
Szell, Cleveland: Like Bohm's, available in their entirety though not in a box set.
Karajan, BPO (1977) Better recorded, IMO than the famous 1963 set.
Barenboim, Staatskapelle Berlin Very traditional readings, and the orchestra plays beautifully. I also have this on DVD-A. The 5th is a little flaccid, and the first movement of the 7th is (IMHO) a tad too fast.

I had the Vanska set, but sold it off. I really have grown crotchety about H.I.P. Beethoven. I really don't like the vibrato-less, rather cold sound of that approach. I did like the way he did the early symphonies; but I could not get a feel for impact that the Eroica would have had on its early listeners. In Vanska's hands, I thought the Eroica sounded more or less like # 1 and 2.

An interesting set I recently picked up is:
Wynn Morris, LSO. I didn't even know he had done a Beethoven set, as this one has been under the radar. Apparently, the set was well received at time of release and followed on the heels of a successful concert run of the symphonies. However, Morris had a rather off-putting personality, and alienated so many people that his career ended early and these recordings were allowed to languish in obscurity. His approach is sort of a cross between H.I.P. and traditional. The tempos are quite fast; but he never loses sight of the intensity and heroic nature of the works. the 5th reminds me of Kleiber's. The 6th is too fast IMO, like Karajan and Vanska. The rest is really well done.

Dave

[John Kim]

You can't 'hear' all those distinct contrapuntal lines in the strings anyway, regardless of how un-blended you can make them sound. Well, I can't. Maybe others can. It's like Mahler became Strauss all of a sudden.

It's not in the strings alone, but the contrapuntal lines in the brass too get blended in this recording.

Where are the horns??

John,

[barry guerrero]

Somewhere to the side of the trombones. I think it's a perfectly fine 9th, and I'm not going to ding the entire cycle because of the 9th. In fact, I'm wishing that the 9th would just go away.

[chalkpie]

In fact, I'm wishing that the 9th would just go away.

?

Does this mean you don't dig M9 or just Bertini's reading or....?

[chalkpie]

Bertini is in the house!

I have some listening to do.......

[barry guerrero]

"Does this mean you don't dig M9 or just Bertini's reading or....?"

A little of your first guess and a bit of "or". I just wouldn't judge any complete cycle by the 9th unless the first movement were truly a train-wreck. I also get tired of all the focusing on the 9th symphony at the expense of "DLvdE" and the 10th symphony - both of which I feel are far greater works, overall, than the 9th.

The 9th has a fabulous first movement, but then everything that comes after it is anti-climactic. The second movement is pretty good, but I really feel that the Rondo-Burlesque is the worst thing Mahler ever composed - perhaps even intentionally so. The final movement isn't nearly as good as the first movement, although the last five minutes are quite original and interesting. I just think that the Bruckner 9th - sans 'finale' - says the same exact thing in a far more succinct and concentrated way.  As I've said before, I wish that Mahler had finished the 10th and left us with just the first movement of the 9th instead. That's just me.

[brunumb]

l feel that the Rondo-Burlesque is the worst thing Mahler ever composed

I'm glad someone else feels the same way about the Rondo-Burlesque.  I've never really liked it.  Like Barry, to me the first movement is the best thing about the 9th.

[barry guerrero]

I don't think that we're supposed to like the Rondo-Burlesque, as it's easily the most genuinely angry movement that Mahler ever composed. It's also a nose-thumping to critics in general. But once you get the joke, enough already.

[chalkpie]

Spun the Bertini Das Lied. Overall count me in the "favorable" column, but my biggest complaint is the intonation of Marjana Lipovsek. It's not bad enough warrant turning the stereo off, but just off enough to raise an eyebrow or two, and become slightly distracting. Bertini handles the textures beautifully and the band plays very well. I can't say I enjoy it as much as the Minnesota version, but I'm glad to add it to my library.

[Roland Flessner]

I adore every note of M9, Rondo-Burleske included, and have for over thirty years. In my most recent obsession, top-tier recordings included Inbal, Dohnanyi, Ozawa and Masur.

I'll also mention that I have an acid test near the end of II. The waltz becomes increasingly delirious, then the tempo abruptly slows to the Ländler. It's one of Mahler's best jokes, where the ascending sixteenth notes on the horns are played absurdly fast, then the tempo gets yanked back as soon as they hit the bar line. Many conductors ruin the joke by playing the pickup notes at the slower tempo.

Masur leads a terrific first movement, and note that the NY Phil is much tighter and more precise in this live recording than in Bernstein's studio effort from the early '60s.

[barry guerrero]

I like the way that the Masur 9th is proportioned, which is also why I like the Alan Gilbert one so much also. In general, they both offer faster than usual first movements, but then don't short change us on the Adagio finale either.