Author Topic: Zinman's new M2nd - revisit  (Read 8801 times)

Offline John Kim

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Zinman's new M2nd - revisit
« on: November 11, 2007, 07:41:51 PM »
I sat down to listen through this new recording by Zinman and Tonhalle Orchestra available on RCA. Initially, I didn't respond favorably to it, especially because the first movt. sounded lacking the kind of punch and momentum that the score calls for. Overall, Zinman's approach emphasizes careful attention to details without excessive phrasing or dynamics, so you are not going to be much impressed with his way with Mahler on casual listening. But it is the thoughtfulness and the subtlety in his interpretation that carries this performance though; time again while I was listening I was reminded of those soft passages in M1st that more or less sound like "salon music". It will submerge you into the aspects of Mahler's great meditation on the Life and Death, but it will also make you aware of those romantic, nostalgic moments in the score. After the Zinman I feel that the Resurrection symphony can still carry its impact in a less extrovert, more meditative fashion without sounding gigantic. Great finale with excellent percussions, especially bells.

However, it will not quite replace my favorite M2nds including the Bernstein, Klemperer, Mehta, and Rattle.

John,

Offline Leo K

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Re: Zinman's new M2nd - revisit
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2007, 08:09:47 PM »
John, excellant overview, and I agree with your descriptions.  This Zinman M2 reminds me of Chailly's M2...both have this meditative and "prayerful" quality that I really like.

My favorite M2's are Mehta/NYPO (from NYPO Mahler box), Scherchen/VPO, Fischer and Rattle on EMI.


--Leo

Offline John Kim

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Re: Zinman's new M2nd - revisit
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2007, 08:16:51 PM »
Leo,

I forgot to mention that I have not yet heard the Fischer, and I know many responded to this recording with rave reviews. It's interesting you mentioned the Mehta/NYPO. In a way this one is even greater, if somewhat souding monotonic (in playing, NOT in the reading), than Mehta's celebrated recording with VPO. But both are outstanding.

I am sure that when I am in the right mood (as I am now) I will visit the Zinman's recording more often.

John,

Offline Leo K

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Re: Zinman's new M2nd - revisit
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2007, 08:33:38 PM »
Yes, the Fischer is one of the best sounding M2's I've heard...I haven't heard MTT's SACD M2 yet...but I think I've heard that sounds great too.

I have to amend my above list, as I think I slightly prefer Zinman over Fischer...the reason is Zinman's way with the last pages of the M2 score...and those bells. 

But judging by performance, Mehta's NYPO is definitely more gripping!

--Leo

Offline Leo K

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Re: Zinman's new M2nd - revisit
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2007, 08:38:33 PM »
By the way, I think you will find Zinman's M3 also quite thoughtful and subtle, only this time he does pull out the stops when needed.  The architecture of the performance impresses on more listens, just like his M2.  And like his M2, the playing is quite beautiful and radiant. 

--Leo

Offline techniquest

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Re: Zinman's new M2nd - revisit
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2007, 11:09:47 PM »
An interesting discussion. The bells at the end of the Zinman recording were one of the reasons why I decided to let it go. They sounded fake, too tinny and constant, definitely not Mahlerian. 

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Zinman's new M2nd - revisit
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2007, 09:40:32 AM »
I like those bells, which are very much real bells - far more so than the ubiquitous, narrow tubular chimes that are hung on a portable, rolling rack. To each their own, I reckon.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 09:43:39 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline techniquest

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Re: Zinman's new M2nd - revisit
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2007, 11:53:44 PM »
I don't doubt they're real (sorry I meant that they only sounded fake, not that they actually were). Maybe 'fake' is the wrong word - they are '1812' bells not M2 bells and I found that to be really disconcerting. It's a wonderful thing the 'each to their own' concept, that's what makes this kind of discussion so interesting - what suits one person doesn't necessarily suit the other. Many people love the Klemperer recordings, but I don't. I really like the Caetani, but have yet to find another who does...I prefer the Fischer over the Zinman, but am not that struck on either. I even like the Wit recording on Naxos!

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Zinman's new M2nd - revisit
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2007, 07:46:22 AM »
What are true Mahler bells? He had his own bells casted somewhere, and actually dragged them around with him on the trains. I'm going to assume that he had just three bells casted, as the end of the symphony indicates for only three different pitches: high, medium, and low. Obviously, on the Zinman recording, the bells are played ad-lib. Then again, they're ad-lib on ALL of the Bernstein recordings of M2, as well as some other other ones too. They're usually played on the tubular chimes - those stupid sounding holy doorbells - so it's not so obvious when they do play ad-lib.  When Mahler performed the "Resurrection" at Basel Cathedral, he had them sound the bells in the church belfry. Sets of orchestral bells are usually mounted on rods of some kind, then struck near the edge with some kind of hard mallet. I suspect that those are the type of bells that you hear at the end of Zinman's M2 (and they make their reappearance at the start of his M3/5: the "bim-bam" movement). Some orchestras actually have smallish bells that can be tipped - with a klapper inside - just like the bigger bells hung in a belfry. Obviously, you can't bring belfry size bells down to the concert stage. So, no matter what you do, it's usually some kind of compromise. It would be interesting to know if Mahler's own bells still exist somewhere. They were probably melted down for some stupid war effort.

I think that the most interesting bell compromise is on the Bertini recording. He has one set of bells - onstage - that play the part as written (alternating salvos between three bells and two tam-tams). Then he has another, bigger set of bells bonging away in the background. Since the symphony hall in Cologne is very close to Cologne Cathedral, I've sometimes wondered if he just got them to bong their bells away. That sort of cooperation happens from time to time.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 07:49:05 AM by barry guerrero »

 

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