DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD

[Leo K]

I was listening to the Abbado VPO M3 again last night...I really believe this is a very impressive M3, and it may even become my top choice, the last three movements are so rich and devotional, radiant with peace, mystery and joy.  I like the sudden turn into spirituality during the last three movements, more obvious than I'm used to hearing in this work, outlined in the tempos and soaring transparency in the execution of the VPO, especially in the strings.  In particular I love the final chord, which seems to hang on forever, but I love the whole way the ending is played...it is not like other recordings, it is more reflective than I'm used to...which is wonderful and fits the concept of the whole performance.  Bravo to Jesse Norman for such profound singing here, I really want to hear her in Ozawa's M3 one of these days (I hear she is on that recording as well?).  I'm sorry it took me so long to buy this release...Abbado really surprises me sometimes, such as his Brahms BPO cycle.

--Leo



 

[John Kim]

Ditto!

...unless I am not me

John,

[barry guerrero]

"In particular I love the final chord, which seems to hang on forever, but I love the whole way the ending is played...it is not like other recordings, it is more reflective than I'm used to...which is wonderful and fits the concept of the whole performance."

This is where I have to part ways with you and John. Yes, it's very devotional - perhaps even too devotional. But the problem is before the final chord: the trumpets get too screechy in quality, which is partly a bi-product of the upsurdly up close recording. On the lower end, the timpani are simply too soft and mushy in quality. They shouldn't sound like they're building a barn - like they do on Haitink/CSO and others - but they shouldn't sound almost non-existant as well. I also think that the final chord is excessively long, which - I have to admit - is better than it being too short. But I also have a problem at the climax of the long brass chorale. When the horns enter, they're magnificent! But before their entrance, the VPO trombones completely fall down on the job. Just compare the brass at the symphony's final cymbal crash - a couple of minutes from the end - on Abbado/VPO and Boulez/VPO (or even Maazel/VPO). The trombones are so much better on the Boulez/VPO one, with far better balances between the trombones, horns, and trumpets - all of whom dovetail the previous sub-section as they enter. The brass are even stronger on Maazel/VPO, but the tempo is excessively slow as well. While it may not be as unique, I think that the Boulez is clearly the most even handed, and technically best Mahler 3 from the Vienna Phil. so far. I also really like the extra brass line that Boulez adds towards the end of the "bim-bam" choral movement - I haven't heard that anywhere else.

[sbugala]

Guess what I got for Christmas? This recording!

I'm not through the sixth movement yet, but I have to say this recording is fantastic.  Frankly, I was fearful the Tonhalle Zurich wouldn't have enough power or stamina to put this score across.  But I really love the playing, sound, and interpretation.  In particular, I find the second and third movements to be among the best I've heard.  Honestly, I've never been a big fan of the second movement.  But Zinman's interpretation won me over. It was serene, whimsical, fun, and fleet.  The scherzo is usually a big litmus test for me, but once again, I was impressed.  Tempos felt fast, but never rushed.  When done poorly, this movement can plod until the cool eruption at the end.  This one really moved in spots and reminded me of how this, like almost all of Mahler's Seventh Symphony is Nachtmusik.  As for the end of the movement, I loved it: clear, but filled with impact. The harps, strings, timpani, and low brass, were fantastic.  And I "heard" it in an inventive new way that seems quite different from anyone else's view.  The fourth movement was quite fine.  I'm a poor judge of voice, so I give a free pass to most.  I see what Hurwitz was talking about regarding the vocalist in her 5th movement appearance, but I really expected worse.  (My friend can't stand Martha Lipton in the Bernstein Sony M3. He uses the Austin Power's line, "She's a Man, Baby!" regarding the sound of her voice.) Somehow, I don't mind her or Remmert.  So unto the final movement.

I guess what I love best about what I've heard so far is the detail. I'm hearing "new" things, like certain instruments, accents, etc. But the emotive impact isn't reduced.

Thanks for locking me onto this one guys!

[barry guerrero]

As I said in my customer review of the Zinman M3 at Amazon.com, this recording pretty much incorporates everything I've admired in nearly every previous recording. However, it doesn't have Salonen's added bass drum on the five five timpani strokes of the entire symphony (I like that touch). Nor does it have Boulez's added brass line (trumpets and horns) towards the end of the "bim-bam" choral movement. But I really like Zinman's handling of the posthorn (offstage trumpet) passages. Thanks for sharing!

Barry

[John Kim]

I've listened to this one again today. I am afraid I must stick with my initial impression. It is a well coordinated, well played and recorded M3rd, but somehow misses the boat, IMO. For one thing, Zinman is so careful in balancing every instrument evenly, executing every note in calculated dynamics that ultimately this recording sounds a bit flat and lacks character. I think the first movt, no matter how all the details were so well laid out (as Barry explained at length) suffers most. Again and again, I was longing for Bernstein, Horenstein, Levine, and even Kubelik, all of whom demonstrated successfully what Mahler really meant by saying "The symphony must be the world". Zinman's M2nd was even less impressive in these aspects, but he seems to be improving as the series continues. The generally soft grained Zurich orchestra doesn't sound like a particularly good Mahler orchestra in these recordings. They may better fit in playing Schubert or Wagner. Perhaps upcoming releases of their M5-M9 might change this impression.

John,

[barry guerrero]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I won't try to shout you down, John, regardless of how tempted I may be to do so. All I can tell is that on my equipment, these Zinman recordings don't come across as lacking visceral impact in the slightest. Far from it, in fact. You listen to what you want to listen to, and I'll be perfectly happy to try each issue of the Zinman cycle. If you're idea of great Mahler is slow tempi, excessively loud brass and loud kettle drums (Haitink/Chicago), knock yourself out. I think that's off the mark by a huge margin. I believe that the scores back me up on that, but everybody likes to criticize without ever even having looked at one.

I also think it's slightly funny that you conjure up Kubelik, because I think of the Zinman cycle, so far, as sort of  the modern day equivalent of the Kubelik one. And on my system, the Zinman issues certainly have far better sound.

Perhaps forums like this have simply outlived their usefulness. Everyone has their own private Mahler. I'm becoming more and more tempted to just go enjoy mine on my own.

[John Kim]

Barry,

I agree that being able to bring out the technical details and lay out the musical elements in the score is very important in M3rd and perhaps we are living in a Mahler era in which such an asset may count more than anything else. In this respect, I rate the Zinman very highly. Still, my overall feeling is that "something" is missing in his music making. Maybe it's the orchestra, maybe it's the sound quality which I am not as impressed with as others are. It's rather difficult to pinpoint.

John,

[barry guerrero]

Sorry, I disagree. What more is there to say. If you think that the Abbado/VPO M3 somehow has better sound than the Zinman, than I know absolutely nothing about sound quality. Perhaps what's missing, John, is simply turning up the freakin' volume. I don't know.

[John Kim]

No, I don't think Abbado's Vienna recording sounds that great either. Anyway, we both agree Haitink I., two Bernsteins, Horenstein, Ozawa are great recordings

Going back to the Zinman, I felt his first movt. was a tad too long - 35 min. Since he handled tempo relationships so well it still managed to hold. Still, it would have been better if he had tightened the movt. a bit down to say, 33 min.

John,

[barry guerrero]

OK, but now you're saying something objective, as opposed to your vague, "something's missing" routine. I can respect your preference for a shorter first movement. Zinman is very "contrast-y" with it - that much is true. But I also think that his funeral march rhythms are sehr deutlich (quite precise) - something that's simply not the case with the Abbado/VPO M3, by the way. That has about THE "mushy-est", most poorly defined funeral march rhythms imaginable. Even the trumpets don't play their rapid triplet figures together, much less clearly. Loud horns?   .   .   it's got tons of that. But both the Boulez/VPO and Maazel/VPO M3 recordings have far stronger trombones. Just compare!

[John Kim]

But I also think that his funeral march rhythms are sehr deutlich (quite precise) - something that's simply not the case with the Abbado/VPO M3, by the way. That has about THE "mushy-est", most poorly defined funeral march rhythms imaginable.

You're quite right there. Zinman's is a rare case where the conductor gets the march rhythms perfectly right. I noticed that immediately and like his march immensely. It's pity that many others including the Abbado (I think Abbado's Berlin version is even worse) simply don't get them correct. Barry, please understand that my quibbles are all minor at this point because I am willing to delve into his M3rd more in the near future and I think I will appreciate it more at that time. However, I really can't warm up to Zinman's M2nd as much. I have to agree with DH's review for that matter.

Regards,

John,

[John Kim]

Barry,

Sorry, I must be thinking of the March section that comes after the slow funeral march passage as well;). As I said, I think Zinman's tempo in this march that leads to the stormy first climax is also really well done, with just a right contrast with the previous section and, a right amount of momentum. It's hard to find a recording that has these elements in a proper balance.

John,

[Leo K]

Zinman's M3 is a very complex and subtle performance...on some days it doesn't reach me, on other days it's the greatest M3 I've ever heard in my life.  I don't quite understand this, but I actually find Barry and John's thoughts quite helpful in trying to pinpoint into words what I do like about this M3.

Actually, I now feel it has a Haitink-like construction, not tempo-wise, but a "willingness" to slowly build and reveal "all" in good time.  On top of this process there is a Horensteinian (sorry to name drop here) ear for "color" and nuance.

All in all, this M3 has indeed grown on me over time. 

--Todd

[barry guerrero]

"However, I really can't warm up to Zinman's M2nd as much. I have to agree with DH's review for that matter."

I never said that Zinman's M2 was one of the truly great ones. Kubelik's M2 wasn't either, for that matter. However, I was very vocal about the deep bells at the end of symphony, which I think are really terrific. I made the point that several of those same bells make their reappearance in the choral "bim-bam" movement of Zinman's M3. I think it's a nice touch that provides more contrast to sound of the triangle and glockenspiel at the end of the movement. A small point, to be sure.