Author Topic: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?  (Read 25644 times)

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2007, 12:23:13 AM »
Again, great points - thanks! That said, I really don't feel that there's any lack of fire in Bruckner's music. I also don't feel that he's "searching" any less than Mahler is either. I just feel that the two composers are very different in a purely musical sense. When Bruckner is great, he's fabulous. But to me, he's a less consistant composer than Mahler, even though Mahler used a far wider range of symphonic and hybrid forms.

I've heard that comment before, about B8 being the crown jewel of 19th century symphonies. I wish I felt that way. To me (and thus, just an opinion), it's nowhere as great as his own 9th symphony. I also prefer his 7th, which I feel is somewhat less flawed. I also feel that the finale of B5 beats the pants of the finale to his 8th. Look, I'm not saying that B8 is a bad symphony in any way! I'm just saying that - for me - his first version is a truer picture of where his head was really at, when he approached his 8th one. I think that something was truly lost when he revised the work. Truthfully, I get more enjoyment out of Dvorak's 7th and 9th symphonies (for some reason, I'm not that wild about D8).

If I had to make some kind of blanket statement about some symphony being the, "jewel of 19th century music" -  pre-Mahler  -  I would have to toss that laurel to the Dvorak 7th. That doesn't mean that I think poorly of the Bruckner 8th. It just means that I have a very high opinion of Tony D's 7th symphony.

Barry
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 01:44:12 AM by barry guerrero »

BorisG

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Re: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2007, 09:43:43 AM »
Again, great points - thanks! That said, I really don't feel that there's any lack of fire in Bruckner's music. I also don't feel that he's "searching" any less than Mahler is either. I just feel that the two composers are very different in a purely musical sense. When Bruckner is great, he's fabulous. But to me, he's a less consistant composer than Mahler, even though Mahler used a far wider range of symphonic and hybrid forms.

I've heard that comment before, about B8 being the crown jewel of 19th century symphonies. I wish I felt that way. To me (and thus, just an opinion), it's nowhere as great as his own 9th symphony. I also prefer his 7th, which I feel is somewhat less flawed. I also feel that the finale of B5 beats the pants of the finale to his 8th. Look, I'm not saying that B8 is a bad symphony in any way! I'm just saying that - for me - his first version is a truer picture of where his head was really at, when he approached his 8th one. I think that something was truly lost when he revised the work. Truthfully, I get more enjoyment out of Dvorak's 7th and 9th symphonies (for some reason, I'm not that wild about D8).

If I had to make some kind of blanket statement about some symphony being the, "jewel of 19th century music" -  pre-Mahler  -  I would have to toss that laurel to the Dvorak 7th. That doesn't mean that I think poorly of the Bruckner 8th. It just means that I have a very high opinion of Tony D's 7th symphony.

Barry

Tony Duggan's 7th?

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2007, 09:47:59 AM »
Good one!   :D

Ivor

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Re: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2007, 07:57:05 AM »
  I did my bit for the Bruckner cause by voting for his 7th in this years Classic fm(UK) hall of Fame top 300. And it got in.

  Bruckner's my 3rd favourite composer,partly because he so often 'does it for me',partly some wonderful melodies,partly for some majestic music,etc.etc.

  the 7th opens with a wonderful,and long,tune;the 3rd with a memorable and simple trumpet affair;the 2nd begins with heart-warming,gorgeous music;the 5th with  wonderfully pregnant and suspenseful  pizzicato chords. And boy does he produce some awe-inspiring climaxes in most of his symphonies.

  The pleasures overwhelm the flaws. The lack of a dramatic biography doesn't affect what I get from the music one scintilla of an iota. That just shows that the inner life of a composer can trump their in-the-world life with sublime ease. (That might even be true of most of us anyway.)

   IMO.


   Ivor

Wunderhorn

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Re: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2007, 02:28:52 AM »
It isn't possible that Bruckner would die out. For starters, he has all the key points of a Great Master, that being vast skill, unique style, and brilliance of ideas. I still can't realize why anyone would dislike Bruckner, even though so many do. I suppose I'll never get over my assumption that the abuse comes from either the dislike of Austro-Germanic music, and the so called picking on who they think the weakest link, or that they simply do not have the patience to grasp his music.

I personally am beginning not to care for collecting recordings anymore; This is why I haven't visited this site in a while. I have noticed many famous conductors ignore Bruckner, but I believe it is for the reasons I stated. Remember, it wasn't so long ago we had Wand. Mark my word, within the next decade we will have another vast figure record on a major label a Bruckner boxset; It will spark something grand!

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2007, 07:36:53 AM »
I'd like to believe what you say, Wunderhorn, but I'm not so sure. I've got to go, but I'll add more to my reply later on tonight.

Offline Damfino

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Re: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2007, 09:02:59 AM »
Quote
the dislike of Austro-Germanic music

I hardly think it is that.  Aren't the most popular composers of the Austro-German variety?  Wouldn't that include Mozart and Beethoven?

I just don't dig Bruckner's music much.  I like Sumphony #s 4, 5, 7 and 8.  That's about it for me.  and I only have one recording of each.

Offline david johnson

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Re: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2007, 09:21:02 AM »
It isn't possible that Bruckner would die out. For starters, he has all the key points of a Great Master, that being vast skill, unique style, and brilliance of ideas. I still can't realize why anyone would dislike Bruckner, even though so many do. I suppose I'll never get over my assumption that the abuse comes from either the dislike of Austro-Germanic music, and the so called picking on who they think the weakest link, or that they simply do not have the patience to grasp his music.

I personally am beginning not to care for collecting recordings anymore; This is why I haven't visited this site in a while. I have noticed many famous conductors ignore Bruckner, but I believe it is for the reasons I stated. Remember, it wasn't so long ago we had Wand. Mark my word, within the next decade we will have another vast figure record on a major label a Bruckner boxset; It will spark something grand!


ok...i'll do it...but we're using piston-valved trumpets.
...& i think a new sports illustrated swimsuit chick on each cd cover....yep, that'll sell.  anton pursued young chicks anyway...but none  married him.

dj
dj

Wunderhorn

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Re: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2007, 08:10:49 PM »


ok...i'll do it...but we're using piston-valved trumpets.
...& i think a new sports illustrated swimsuit chick on each cd cover....yep, that'll sell.  anton pursued young chicks anyway...but none  married him.

dj
dj

Mr. Johnson, you're being absolutely absurd. As far as seeking younger women; Some men simply have vices. The fact of the matter, that no one can dispute, is that at least Bruckner had command of very influential counterpoint. And his 8th, surely everyone knows, will stand the test of time.


Offline barry guerrero

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Re: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2007, 01:59:56 AM »
Yes, I think that it many respects, Bruckner is a top notch composer. He reaches back to medieval and baroque musical ideas, as well as displaying the strong influence of Schubert and Wagner. But his works aren't virtuoso show pieces for the modern symphony orchestra, except for perhaps the brass. I feel that there are some problems in the way that Bruckner orchestrates. Woodwind lines are often times obscured, particularly the bassoons. To me, it's little wonder that Schalk, Levi, and others, tinkered with his works. The problem is, those folks only made it worse in the long run.

I recently watched the DVD of B5 from St. Florian Cathedral with Welser-Most/Cleveland Orch. Unfortanately, that performance falls flat as a pancake. In his greatly altered edition, Schalk doubles the timpani part at the end of the symphony. To be truthful, it really badly needs that (I don't think that his gratuitous cymbals and triangle hurt any either). Unfortunately, American brass sections just can't play the 5th properly, with perhaps the exception of Chicago. Using just four modern F/Bb double horns, just isn't enough to get the horn parts across during the closing brass chorale passages. If you're going to use those acoustically dead sounding double horns, you need to bring the number up to six or eight. Also, the big 6/4 CC tuba - like the one that the young Japanese tuba player uses in Cleveland - is completely wrong sounding for that tuba part. In the fifth, the tuba is much more like a fourth trombone than a super-bass to the entire orchestra. A smaller tuba with a more driving sound is what's required. At least Cleveland used German rotary valve trumpets, with their longer and wider bell sections; that much they truly got right. In the fifth, Bruckner writes completely independent bassoon parts, and you never hear a single note that they ever play. I don't think it would help to bring the number of bassons up to six or eight either - there's just too much other loud stuff to compete with. Those parts need to be divided up to other instruments that can cut through (the bassoons are often times playing counter rhythms that no one else in the orchestra has)

So, what I'm bringing up here, isn't to say that Bruckner is a poor composer by any means. It's just that the way he orchestrates his music doesn't provide enough clarity and/or coloristic "ear candy" to compete with the likes of Mahler, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Bartok; and many, many others. For many modern listeners, his music comes off as both repetitive and blustery. That's why I'm fearful that his music will slide down the pantheon a bit. By the way, I really liked the fact that Herbert Blomstedt did a fair amount of Bruckner here in S.F. Unfortunately, his B5 performances fell flat for the same exact reasons. In essence, there just isn't enough "oomph" at the climax of the brass chorale to balance out the length and weight of the previous 65 minutes of music. Mahler could have fixed all that very easily.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 09:36:49 PM by barry guerrero »

Ivor

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Re: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2007, 08:23:05 AM »
  Interestingly,on BBc 3's Private Passions this week,Vernon Bogdanor (Prof of Gov.? at Oxford) said he met Solti,and referred to "the greatest symphony since Beethoven".

  Solti smiled and said,"Ah,Bruckner's 7th."

  Bogdanor said," No. His 8th."


   Either  way .................

  (The prog can be listened to as a podcast via bbc website tilll sat)

   Apart from the tunefulness,and the climaxes, he has a (musical) way and tone of speaking all his own, very romantic and mysterious, and gets tremendous power out of pounding rhythms.

   Bruckner provides me with my favourite overstatement.

   Hugo Wolf,the composer , said 'the cymbal clash at the climax of the 7th's slow movement, was worth all four Brahms symphonies,with the two serenades thrown in !!'

   They don't m,ake comments like that any more.

Offline Amphissa

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Re: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2007, 07:50:23 PM »
    Hugo Wolf,the composer , said 'the cymbal clash at the climax of the 7th's slow movement, was worth all four Brahms symphonies,with the two serenades thrown in !!'
   They don't m,ake comments like that any more.

No they don't - and thankfully neither does Hugo Wolf.
"Life without music is a mistake." Nietzsche

Vatz Relham

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Re: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2007, 02:40:50 PM »
  Interestingly,on BBc 3's Private Passions this week,Vernon Bogdanor (Prof of Gov.? at Oxford) said he met Solti,and referred to "the greatest symphony since Beethoven".

  Solti smiled and said,"Ah,Bruckner's 7th."

  Bogdanor said," No. His 8th."


   Either  way .................

  (The prog can be listened to as a podcast via bbc website tilll sat)

   Apart from the tunefulness,and the climaxes, he has a (musical) way and tone of speaking all his own, very romantic and mysterious, and gets tremendous power out of pounding rhythms.

   Bruckner provides me with my favourite overstatement.

   Hugo Wolf,the composer , said 'the cymbal clash at the climax of the 7th's slow movement, was worth all four Brahms symphonies,with the two serenades thrown in !!'

   They don't m,ake comments like that any more.

That's quite funny since Buckner never intended for that cymbal crash to be there, it was only after Schalk, or Nikisch persuaded him that he included it, along with the triangle and tympani.

Vatz

Ivor

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Re: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2007, 04:40:55 AM »
  There are few composers who are recorded by everybody.

  meanwhile Bruckner has received attention from many quite good conductors.

  Furtwangler,Jochum,Haitink,Wand,Masur,Barenboim,Inbal,Barbirolli,Horenstein,Kertesz,Matacic,Walter,Maazel,Harnoncourt,ColinD.,KlempererGiulini,Beinum,Boulez,Karajan,Bohm,SzellKeilberth,Chailly,Tennstedt,Mehta,Tate,Kabasta,Muti.

  So,on the one hand,a lot of musical people have found something.

  On the other hand, composers can be just not your cup of tea.


     Ivor

Vatz Relham

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Re: OT: Is Bruckner slowly sliding into obscurity?
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2007, 06:07:10 AM »
  There are few composers who are recorded by everybody.

  meanwhile Bruckner has received attention from many quite good conductors.

  Furtwangler,Jochum,Haitink,Wand,Masur,Barenboim,Inbal,Barbirolli,Horenstein,Kertesz,Matacic,Walter,Maazel,Harnoncourt,ColinD.,KlempererGiulini,Beinum,Boulez,Karajan,Bohm,SzellKeilberth,Chailly,Tennstedt,Mehta,Tate,Kabasta,Muti.

  So,on the one hand,a lot of musical people have found something.

  On the other hand, composers can be just not your cup of tea.


     Ivor

Ivor,

Not sure who your response was aimed at but, Bruckner is my "cup of tea" and has been for many years.

Vatz

 

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