Reunion w/ Abbado/VPO/DG M9

[Leo K]

I approached the Abbado/VPO/M9 last night with a certain anticipation...it had been 15 years or so since I last heard it.  What I could remember of it was the atmospheric production of the recording, and how the sound reminded me of "rainy" or "overcast" weather, with every detail well heard as if the music was air itself, very transparent and lucid...when it rains in Tucson the smell of the mesquite trees are suddenly clarified and pungent.  This "rainy" sound is also how I imagine Alban Berg's Op.6 as heard in Abbado's Berg Op.6 recordings.

Listening to the first movement brought me right back into 1991, and I realized how influenced I have been with the sound of the strings on this recording, as I listen for this sound in every M9 I come across, not consciously...but I feel this is pretty much the ideal string sound for this symphony...no wonder I love the new BPO Rattle, which is a performance very similar to the Abbado VPO M9, at least in my mind...we have the beautiful prominent horn playing, the biting trombones, hard hitting timpani and that wonderful atmospheric string sound in both recordings, and the pacing and overall concept is similar as well, with Rattle being somewhat more expansive in sections. 

The Abbado and the VPO have the edge with the expert balance of bite, refined beauty, and pacing...although Rattle is still grand is every way.  I just wouldn't be surprised if Rattle has appreciated what Abbado has accomplished in Mahler's 9, and perhaps has even been influenced in some manner.  In any case, I agree with John that Abbado's VPO has the edge over his BPO recording, by a large margin too.  The VPO is so well captured in every detail, with the climaxes revealing the colors of the score in a brilliant cold light...amazing indeed.

The RB is another highlight...I love the detail and the pace...and it all keeps my attention bound mercilessly.  Interpretations of this movement has always been a sort of problem for me, there are only a few recordings that absolutely keep me interested; Ozawa (SKO), Bernstein (RCO, BSO), Haitink/ECYO, Wakasugi/TMSO, Rattle/BPO, and now this Abbado/VPO (there are a few others).  I like the action not to be too meanlingless, although I secretly feel that is Mahler's point in the RB, very similar in tone to the finale of his 7th..."much ado about nothing".  In these few accounts the RB is "meaningless" but NOT played as such...there is still a kind of purpose to the ongoing counterpoint and weaving lines and movement in general, but the music doesn't get the joke...this is hard to explain, but thats what I look for!

The Adagio has a great, biting (thanks to the trombones) climax and the horns soar!  The whole Adagio highlights those miracle VPO strings, much as Rattle's BPO strings improve his account of the Adagio.  Abbado's pace really flows...and the emotional impact is very strong and devastating, yet so fragile and subtle because of the pacing. 

Truly an M9th to treasure.

--Leo

[John Kim]

Todd,

Thanks for your thoughts on this recording. This one was one of my first two "digital" introductions to Mahler Ninth, the other being the Karajan. Initially I was bothered a bit by Abbado's tendency to intervene with the flow of the music, particularly in I., but over the years I got convinced much of this has to do with the closed-up sound of DG that reveals and tends to magnify "every detail. Speaking of the DG sound, IMO this is a stagerring achievement; I've never heard a live concert so vividly and spectacularly captured as this one, albeit it is somewhat too close. Abbado's overall concept of the symphony has not changed much and in this very first recording he is greatly helped by the immaculate playing of VPO (Barry might not agree with us, but I for one am just stunned by the playing). Plus, Abbado really shines at several moments such as the quite, zen-like passages in I. (have you ever heard these moments in such a calm, subtle treatment?) which is followed by the thundering timpani and trombones, or the final pages in III. where he whips his orch. into frenzy at breakneck speed.

John,

[barry guerrero]

I think it's very typical of the Vienna Phil. in this type of work. While they absolutely nail some of the sound effects - by and large, coming up with a rather Alban Berg-ian, expressionistic sound - they also get a bit bogged down in Mahler's thick, highly contrapuntal textures. Abbado made a very good "Wozzeck" with the VPO roughly around the same time period. Some of that expressionistic sound-world spills over into the Mahler. That's a good thing, but the major problem is this: in the fourth movement, they really don't lay down a strong enough string sound to counter-balance all the weight and darkness of the previous three movements. In other words, their results in the fourth movement don't justify the previous three. More to the point, Abbado fails to nail the big climax in the fourth movement. In comparison, the Berlin Phil. consistantly comes up with the opposite effect: they achive much greater transparency in the first three movements, but then lay down a thick blanket of string sound in the fourth movement. On balance, I really prefer Abbado's BPO remake, which is just much better proportioned.

What I do think is good about this set are two things. First; the fact that the Abbado/VPO M9/M10-Adagio set comes with a billion extra tracks (I like that). And second, the fact that the DG placed the 10th symphony Adagio BEFORE the start of the 9th symphony, not afterwards. This makes for a very interesting comparison between these two incredible first movements.

I once read an interview with Lorin Maazel - Fanfare Magazine, I believe - and he made the following observation regarding the VPO in Mahler. While he indicated that it was struggle to perform Mahler with the VPO - citing some indifferernce and a generally lack of understanding on their part - he also acknowledged that they made a lot of the right sounds inspite of themselves. Dave Hurwitz would put it differently, by claiming that Mahler basically composed anti-Vienna Phil. music. I think that the answer is a bit more complicated than that, but I know what he means. The one Mahler symphony that the VPO seems to consistanly do quite well is the 6th.

[John Kim]

Barry,

For what I am looking to hear in the Ninth, I am very content with what VPO can do and excel most of other orchestras in the world; they (the players) know precisely how to balance each other. I mean, how often do we get to hear the trumpets in the three big climaxes cutting through the thick orchestra so vividly? How often we get to hear the horns so clearly audible out of the thick orchestral sound? Speaking of the horns, Mahler used only four of them, not six, which might have been his mistake. What about the screaming woodwinds? Timpani? Have we ever heard the timpani cracking so well? It really takes a great orchestra to manage the balance between all the instruments in Mahler Ninth and my ears are telling me that along with the Ozawa/BSO/Philips recording this is the best example that clearly demonstrates the excellence of the orchestra. Like I said, Abbado's reading sometimes sacrifices the flow for dramatic effects, but that's conductor's fault not the orchestra.

Again, for shear brilliance of orchestra and its sound in M9th I always come to listen to the Abbado/VPO recording.

John,

[John Kim]

One more thing. There is no comparison in the recording sound between the Abbado's two versions; the VPO recording is miles ahead of the BPO CD.

John,

[barry guerrero]

Sorry, but I disagree. While the VPO gets many of the effects and noises correct along the way, it's the major climaxes of the work that come up short. The major climaxes to both of the outer movements fail to surpass much of the noise that happens before reaching those junctures. It's the old forest from the trees syndrom. Believe me, along with Abbado's Vienna M3, I've tried to hang with this recording numerous times. And in spite of the fact that they get many of the local effects correct, I find that the Rondo-Burlesque comes off as heavy, dark, and somewhat muddy. In this particular movement - along with the string dominated fourth movement - I feel that the BPO beats them every time. The heavy and muddy sounding low strings are a bit too much of a good thing in this particular recording. Looking at the big picture, I really feel that Abbado's remakes are an improvement, even if some of his micro-managed details got lost in the process. And while it may not be nearly so well conducted (I think it is), I feel that the N.Y. Phil. on Masur's M9 plays the pants off the Vienna Phil. here. At the very least, there's little comparison in the fourth movement. To me, the best VPO M9 is still the Klemperer.

And John, ask yourself this question in a candid way: if it were truly such a great Mahler 9th, why did it go out of print in just a couple of year's time?

[Leo K]

There are out of print recordings that are considered great...isn't Horenstein's M3 out of print as a single issue?  As well as his Music and Arts M9?  Or Scherchen's M2 on MCA Millenium Classics? Barenboim's CSO B6 for another example?

I think John states his case very well.  Barry, you make some interesting points and I appreciate your review as well...I wonder if you will like the new Rattle BPO M9...you just might. 

The Abbado VPO strings sound very much like they do in his VPO M3, another recording I find revelatory. I really prefer the reverential quality...or prayerful quality in the playing.  In the VPO M9 the string sound has just the right amount of wieght, enough for my ears anyways, but they really SING as if Mahler wrote it just for them, and are recorded brilliantly in all their splendor...and the transparency in the quieter sections take my breath away. In all the movements the whole orchestra is captured is such a manner to reveal the layers in the score...stunning.

--Leo

[John Kim]

Barry,

Apparently, we must have different views of M9th then. Your points are well taken nevertheless.

I didn't say the Abbado/VPO is the greatest M9th. I did say I take issues with Abbado's conducting but I also said I wish the sound were not that closed-up. IMO, the best overall Abbado M9th was, from interpretation perspective, his 1995 Mahlerfest concert. But this one from Vienna comes pretty close and in terms of the sound & playing is second to none.

John,

[barry guerrero]

And my point isn't that the Abbado/VPO M9 is terrible; or bad even. But Todd, your point about the VPO's playing in these recordings is precisely what I say is as much wrong with them, as right. They can't have it both ways! By that, I mean that you can't treat these symphonies with the sort of small scale intimacy - as well as obliquely (sp?) doing the correct things from a "period perfomance" standpoint - that they would employ for a Beethoven symphony; and then, blast everything else out there, as though they were playing "Wozzeck" in the opera pit (same orchestra; different venue and acoustics). After all the heavy blasting in the R-B movement, the more "reverential" scale and sound of the high strings in the fourth movement, sounds rather out-of-place and TOO small scale in proportion to what we've just heard. This what I mean about the fourth movement not justifying the previous three. But more to the point, Abbado rushes at the climax of the fourth movement. He also mis-triggers at the first movement's main climax as well.

Let me site another example of BPO vs. VPO in the 9th symphony. Take either the Karajan, Bernstein/BPO or Abbado/BPO M9's, and go to the main climax of the first movement. In all three cases, after the low brass are done blasting out the symphony's opening "irregular heartbeat" motif at triple forte, you can clearly hear the dissonant low A-natural (I think that's the concert note) in the horns. This is a very, VERY important detail that escapes the VPO each and every time. These are the flames of hell reaching upward - or surrounding us, if you will (basically, this is during the measure(s) where the timpani pound out their four note motif). I will gladly trade all of the VPO's Bergian bloops and bleeps - as well as their prayerful, reverential sounding high strings - to get this one very important detail correct. Need I continue further, because there are plenty of other examples where the VPO's unique sound-world screws up balances and textures as well? With them, with each sound they get fully correct, they often times also get something else slightly wrong.

I have to run.

[Leo K]

Barry,

Again I want to say your points are well taken, thanks for your specific comments.  Different strokes for different folks and all that!

--Todd

[John Kim]

Let me site another example of BPO vs. VPO in the 9th symphony. Take either the Karajan or Abbado M9's, and go to the main climax of the first movement. In both cases, after the low brass are done blasting out the symphony's opening "irregular heartbeat" motif at triple forte, you can clearly hear the dissonant low A-natural (I think that's the concert note) in the horns. This is a very, VERY important detail that escapes the VPO each and every time. These are the flames of hell reaching upward - or surrounding us, if you will (basically, this is during the measure(s) where the timpani pound out their four note motif).

I am VERY well aware of this low A-natural you mentioned. I too am bothered by the lack or absence of this note, but let me remind you that this is inaudible in MOST of M9th recordings. I can't hear it in Ozawa/BSO/Philips, Ozawa/SKO/Sony, Levine, Haitink (barely audible), Dohnanyi (completely inaudible), etc, the list goes on. OTOH it is VERY loud in the Rattle/VPO/EMI recording.

True, it is VPO vs. BPO we're talking about here. BPO "integrates" better than VPO but the latter has better virtuosity from individual players. I mean, I choose to listen to BPO over VPO or vice versa depending on my mood and taste at that time. It really doesn't matter - both are great orchestras, much better than Seattle Symphony Orch.

Man, the Macal/CPO/Exton M9 won't be available until 1/28/08.

John,

[barry guerrero]

"much better than Seattle Symphony Orch"

Sorry, but I don't agree with that thought either. I believe that pretty much ANY of America's highly paid, fully professional orchestras can hold their own against either the BPO or VPO. In fact, I think that American orchestras are able to perform a far wider range of repertoire more comfortably; more compentently, and more idiomaticly than either of those two orchestras. If we're talking about going head to head on a Beethoven cycle; sure, I'll place my bets on the Austro/German side of the border. But look how much praise the Minnesota Orchestra is receiving for their ongoing Beethoven cycle with Osmo Vaenska - who's not even an Austro/German himself! In all probability, neither the BPO or VPO would come close to what the Seattle Symphony has achieved in their numerous recordings of American repertoire for Delos and Naxos. If it were a "La Mer" contest, I'd probably place my bets in this order: Berlin, Seattle, Vienna. But that's greatly because the BPO got "La Mer" drilled into them by von Karajan - who's fashionable among non-musicians to despise these days.

You're free to think that I'm wrong, but I can at least say that I've heard many of the world's biggest name orchestras in concert, numereous times; and at numerous different venues. I don't think that there's anything sacred about how the VPO plays these pieces at all. Sorry, but I don't. Unique? At times, yes. Better? No; just different.

The classical music genre is not about making the composer's efforts fit comfortably with what the Vienna Phil. does well. Instead, it's about who and what best serves what the composer wrote. It doesn't matter where it comes from. In my opinion, several of Bertini's achivements in Japan are every bit as good as what the VPO has ever achieved. I'd gladly take him in the Mahler 9th over Abbado ANY DAY.

[Leo K]

Barry, perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you said, because in the 4th mov (of the Abbado VPO M9) the strings don't sound 'undersized' to me, but the reverential tone is a natural outcome of what has occured in the previous three movements...by this point the 'surrender' or even the 'end' is near so to speak, so dramatically I feel this works and is a good interpretive choice.  There are other movements in other Mahler works that do sound undersized sometimes, like the second movement of the 2nd, as well as the Adagietto movement in the 5th...in these works Mahler is rather post-modern by mixing up different genres and etc...the success of these movements depends on conductor and esemble, so I understand if you do not enjoy Abbado's decisions for his VPO M9.  For me the contrast between the second movment and the RB is more jarring, and not because the way the VPO play it, this stylistic contrast is already inherent in Mahler's score.

I like the Bertini Japan M9 alot, it is in my top tier...I feel there is room for both Bertini and the Abbado, it depends on my mood.

Again, apples and oranges...you say tamato and I say tomato!

--Todd

[barry guerrero]

You're right. I've decided to go look for used copy and keep it this time. Seriously, I don't feel that the upper strings of the VPO pump out enough sound to counter their "Wozzeck" treament of the R-B movement. The BPO strings may not have as unique or idiomatic type of sound, but they sure pump out a large body of sound. Normally, I don't really like that much string sound in Mahler. But in the case of the 9th symphony, you really need a fully body of string sound to justify the previous three movements, especially if you're going to give them such a powerful and expressionistic treatment as Abbado/VPO do. But more important point, for me, is that Abbado really did rush the climax of the fourth movement his first time around. I also think that DG allowed the low strings to sound too thick and muddy in this particular recording. That said, I'll take too much bass over too little any day. But there are two other things that kept me making this set a "keeper".

I just find that the wind colorings in the second movement just aren't distinct enough, or good enough either. The VPO always have loud oboes with a cutting sound, but their bassoons are always too soft in volume, and really almost sound like baroque period bassoons (weirdly enough, the same isn't true for their contrabassoon). I just don't like that. They have great clarinets, but they don't always cut through when they should. In the 10th symphony Adagio, I don't like the balances at the loud expressionistic outburst, located immediately before the even more harrowing climax. The trumpets are too loud and too screachy in quality - just like at the end of Abbado's VPO M3 - and nearly cover up too much of the harmony and undulating strings. Listen to how perfectly balanced the same passage is on the Bertini M10 Adagio. The harmony is more clearly defined, and you can really follow those up and down, undulating violins and violas. Chailly/DSO Berlin (or whatever that orchestra it was called then) is REALLY good with the same M10/1 climax as well.

This is not a terrible set by any measure. But just as with Abbado's VPO M3, I really did try to hang with it for a long time. The more I listened to it, the less satisfied I was.

[Leo K]

Barry, thanks again for specifics...I want to mention that I really love the sound of Abbado VPO Wozzeck you mentioned earlier in the thread, and this performance/production is very similar, another reason it's a keeper for me.  Oh, and the dynamic range in this recording adds to the tension and excitement of the work as a whole...it's great to hear the the wide peaks and deep valleys, Abbado's VPO M3 also has a wide dynamic, it's one of the reasons I love that recording as well.

I am wondering how you will like the new Rattle BPO M9...it sounds like your cup of tea in terms of the sound and pace, a great performance in every way and not as mannered as Rattle sometimes can get...and the strings are huge here.  I'm not sure if your interested in hearing yet another new M9, but I can burn it for you if you wish.      

--Todd