Author Topic: Barry writes about Rattle/BPO/EMI M9th CD on amazon.com (5/5 rating)  (Read 9549 times)

Offline John Kim

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I've been teetering as to whether this rate this 4 or 5 stars. What pushed me on to five stars, was the simple fact that EMI is selling this as a "twofer" - two discs for the price of one. Sorry to base it upon such a practical issue, but I'm afraid that it really did come down to that for me. As for the performance itself, my feelings lie somewhere between Tony Duggan's "stand up and cheer" rave review at The Mahler-list, and Dave Hurwitz's 7/7 dismissal at Classicstoday.com. That said, I too noticed the same exact drawbacks as Mr. Hurwitz did. I just don't feel that these shortcomings are severe enough to denigrate the recording as whole. Then again, I'm rarely thrilled with the sound on these Rattle/Berlin ventures. In this case, the sound strikes me as being a bit better than usual from this team. As for specific drawbacks, I see mainly two.

In the first movement, as Hurwitz points out, the main climax needs stronger low brass, as well as a stronger whack on the big gong. Karajan gets the gong part right (as well as the "flames of hell" rising from the dissonant low "A" in the ((french)) horns), while Giulini gets his Chicago low brass to hammer the movement's main rhythmic motif with the greatest possible force - just as Mahler indicates. Other than that, Rattle's first movement strikes me as being far superior to his earlier Vienna one - a badly balanced recording in general. My other complaint has to do with the Rondo-Burlesque.

As Hurwitz again pointed out, the R-B's contrasting central episode is quick to the point of rushing. But more bothersome to my ears, is the fact that Rattle's initial tempo for the R-B isn't that much quicker. In other words, there isn't a lot of contrast - tempo wise - between the main body, and the much need respite of that central interlude. For me, a wee sense of tedium sets in just before the central episode comes to its rescue. Perhaps that was Rattle's point from the start, I don't know. Regardless, I certainly have no complaints about the string playing in the finale, made better by Rattle's natural flow for the bulk of it.

That said, I too noticed the two very same small shortcomings that Hurwitz points out: the violas are a tad too loud with their final triplet figure near the end of the symphony, and Rattle begins to fade before the harmony is fully resolved at the end. These are small points, to be sure - but noticeable.

Coming back to the big picture, here's the bottom line: if you're strongly curious, get it - EMI priced it as one disc. If you already own one of the Berlin Phil.'s many fine recordings of the Mahler 9th - the one Mahler symphony that they ALWAYS do very well - you really don't need to jump ship. I think that Karajan does a better job of nailing the major climaxes in the two outer movements. But Rattle is better in a number of smaller details, in spite of the negative ones pointed out. The Abbado one is perfectly fine for those who prefer their Mahler 9th to fit on one disc. And let's not forget an old favorite: the Barbirolli M9 from the middle 60's (it always struck me as a bit too soft-edged for this particular work, but it's fine none the less). As for EMI, I simply can't understand why they didn't want to hold off issuing their Simon Rattle complete Mahler symphonies box set, in order to include this obviously superior performance and recording. Go figure!


Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Barry writes about Rattle/BPO/EMI M9th CD on amazon.com (5/5 rating)
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2008, 06:43:53 AM »
John,

Just a small point of clarification: there isn't a separate rating for the sound quality at Amazon - just one general rating.

Barry

Offline John Kim

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Re: Barry writes about Rattle/BPO/EMI M9th CD on amazon.com (5/5 rating)
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2008, 03:09:48 PM »
John,

Just a small point of clarification: there isn't a separate rating for the sound quality at Amazon - just one general rating.

Barry
That's what I meant - five stars out of five ;)

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Barry writes about Rattle/BPO/EMI M9th CD on amazon.com (5/5 rating)
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2008, 07:11:32 PM »
Got it! - understood. I only make the point because I'd probably give the sound a 4 rating.

Offline Leo K

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Re: Barry writes about Rattle/BPO/EMI M9th CD on amazon.com (5/5 rating)
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2008, 10:51:16 PM »
Barry, excellant review.  I'm still waiting to get the commercial CD...probably head over to border's tonight...then I'll listen again and review with my first impressions.

In terms of sound, it appears the Rattle/BPO M9 commercial CD sound is better the recent Schwarz M9, also reviewed on this board recently by John and myself. Still, I hope folks still check out the Schwarz M9, which is a heart rending performance, more gritty overall... a performance worth having.

Above the new Rattle and Schwarz, towers the incredible glory of the Macal/CPO M9 on Exton (and SACD)...an M9 that will be sadly overlooked I'm afraid.

--Todd


« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 10:52:55 PM by Leo K »

Offline John Kim

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Re: Barry writes about Rattle/BPO/EMI M9th CD on amazon.com (5/5 rating)
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2008, 04:09:12 AM »
As I sampled the audio clips on internet, the Rattle/BPO M9th CD sounded pretty good. If only EMI saw it to issue a separate SACD... or DVD-A :-[

John,

Offline John Kim

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Re: Barry writes about Rattle/BPO/EMI M9th CD on amazon.com (5/5 rating)
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2008, 02:34:59 AM »
I finally got my copy from a local Borders. I've just finished listening to the first movt.

To make a long story short (and I will write about details later), the sound is MUCH, MUCH better than the downloaded file we've been listening since fall, 2007. It is so much better that Rattle recording now sounds like a very different and a truly great performance. The dynamic range is appropriately wide, every detail clearly delineated (both by the conductor/orchestra and engineers), the timpani thundering. True, the Berlin brass may lack lung power in the lower end, BUT they nicely make up for it by immaculate, robust playing. Thus, the fff brass outburst at the major climax doesn't sound weak at all, despite the lack of the low part. The tam tam, BTW, is loud and has a startling presence at this spot. This is the kind of sound that Abbado/BPO/DG should have been blessed with. The playing is so precise yet has the volatile element that the score asks for; listen to how they follow Rattle's steep tempo change at the first and second climaxes without making a singl slip. Bravo!

I'll report on the remaining movts later...but my mind is already hooked by this great recording :D

John,


Offline Leo K

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Re: Barry writes about Rattle/BPO/EMI M9th CD on amazon.com (5/5 rating)
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2008, 06:48:24 AM »
Wow John!!!  Great to hear your enthusiastic report!

Looks like I can't delay getting this any longer  :) :)  :D


--Todd

Offline John Kim

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Re: Barry writes about Rattle/BPO/EMI M9th CD on amazon.com (5/5 rating)
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2008, 07:46:37 PM »
Regarding the R-B and Finale I have little to add to what Barry had already pointed out in his excellent review. Like he said, this R-B might be the bottleneck of the recording. But let's face it. Despite the shortcomings, i.e., the middle portion marching nearly at the same tempo as the rest, the opening not fast enough, the Berlin players are outstanding and hence it doesn't spoil the entire performance at all. But I have to put a blame on Rattle for having missed the opportunity to raise the performance to a great one. The Finale is also excellent and I didn't feel that the viola was too loud near the end (Abbado's Vienna recording is similar here). Perhaps Rattle was trying to imbue a slight optimism right before the music slips away. DH might be right in that the Berlin strings easily outsound their woodwinds here and there but that might be Rattle's decision.

About the sound quality, I had a chance to listen to the entire recording on my headphones. Strangely, on the headphones it sounded rather dry and thin. However, on regular speakers the sound was full and rich, so it's puzzling. I think EMI engineers somewhat squeezed the richness out of the way in order to enhance the clarity. OTOH, the downloaded music file sounds fuller despite the lack of clarity and dynamic range.

Offline Leo K

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Re: Barry writes about Rattle/BPO/EMI M9th CD on amazon.com (5/5 rating)
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2008, 01:45:16 AM »
Wow, wow, and wow.

The difference in sound from the iTunes Mp3 is staggering, and the performance is even better for it.

Fortunately, it sounded great on my headphones, very full, rich lower end, with clarity in the highs...the strings are captured magnificently.  The sections that frustrated me in the iTunes version are not an issue on the commercial CD, and to my suprise the clarity elevates the recording beyond my expectations!  There is a wonderful sound picture here I simply can't describe, but I encourage those interested to get this CD as soon as possible.

What I REALLY love about this M9 is the pacing of the first, second and fourth movements.  Sadly, the RB isn't at such a high level in terms of pace, or conception, but John is correct when he observes that the virtuosic playing of the BPO still keeps our attention, and therefore my experience of the RB isn't ruined by any means.

The crown jewel is the Adagio which is among the most uplifting I've heard in an M9.  The strings are so elegant, serene, and ragged with passion...and the recording captures the nuances with extreme sensitivity.  The iTunes recording seemed to over-favor the strings, but the commercial release reveals a fair balance between the all the sections of the orchestra.

The first movement is also improved thanks to the sound.  Now, the climaxes have more impact and atmosphere...again, special mention goes to the strings, but I also tip my hat to the horn section.  In the iTunes version, the horns were too upfront, but here the horns fit in nice balance, yet their glorious tone is heard just fine...a good balance makes a huge difference.

Rattle and the BPO's incredible rendering of the second movement pushes my estimation of this release even higher, and I feel this M9 is fast becoming my personal favorite and main recommendation for those new to the work.  The BPO take my breathe away with the character and personality heard in the playing, and Rattle's pacing is spot on. 

I have to humbly disagree with Mr. Hurwitz on most points except those two that Barry and John mentioned above.  But those problems are not enough to sour the perfomance at all.  There is a healthy gestalt that transcends the details. I stand closer to Mr. Duggan's estimation.

 :D

--Todd

 




Offline John Kim

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Re: Barry writes about Rattle/BPO/EMI M9th CD on amazon.com (5/5 rating)
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2008, 04:51:02 AM »
Todd,

Thanks for the head up :D

Yes, it's amazing how the sound improves when you switch from the iTunes file to the CD. I still have some issue with the sonics as I described above, but hey, this pleasantly has met all my expectations. Like I said, BPO's ability to adopt themselves so brilliantly to the steep changes in the tempo in I. is simply amazing. How many orchestras in the world can do this?

John,

Offline John Kim

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Re: Barry writes about Rattle/BPO/EMI M9th CD on amazon.com (5/5 rating)
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2008, 06:35:37 AM »
David Hurwitz thought the tam-tam was not loud, not present, and it's practically inaudible at the major climax in I.

But do the following experiment. Play the track I. (first movt.) on a portable radio/CD player stereo equipment. Set the volume at a middle position, ie., neither too loud nor too soft, and listen to the player at a distance about 2-3 ft away from the portable. You'll hear the tam tam smash at the climax very clearly, "shhhack!". I did it twice and it came off very nicely, even if it was not as loud as in the Karajan II. You'll also hear the instrument at other soft places as well. Overall, this CD sounds fuller and more immediate on speakers than on headphones. But I am pretty happy with the way Rattle deploy his ideas along the way with the score, especially in the first movt. where he employs steep tempo and dynamic changes during the first and second climaxes. I think these ideas worked out really well in this recording.

Perhaps Japanese pressing will sound better still?... ???

John,


Offline Leo K

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Re: Barry writes about Rattle/BPO/EMI M9th CD on amazon.com (5/5 rating)
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2008, 03:54:54 PM »
John,

I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the Japanese release sooner or later, since I love this M9 so much...

The playing of the BPO here is among the best I've heard them perform on disk...right up there with the playing in Abbado's Brahms cycle on DG.  I still love Karajan's BPO M9's, especially the broadcasts...but the sound and playing in Rattle's new release is something to celebrate.   


--Todd

Vatz Relham

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Re: Barry writes about Rattle/BPO/EMI M9th CD on amazon.com (5/5 rating)
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2008, 01:35:10 PM »
David Hurwitz thought the tam-tam was not loud, not present, and it's practically inaudible at the major climax in I.

But do the following experiment. Play the track I. (first movt.) on a portable radio/CD player stereo equipment. Set the volume at a middle position, ie., neither too loud nor too soft, and listen to the player at a distance about 2-3 ft away from the portable. You'll hear the tam tam smash at the climax very clearly, "shhhack!". I did it twice and it came off very nicely, even if it was not as loud as in the Karajan II. You'll also hear the instrument at other soft places as well. Overall, this CD sounds fuller and more immediate on speakers than on headphones. But I am pretty happy with the way Rattle deploy his ideas along the way with the score, especially in the first movt. where he employs steep tempo and dynamic changes during the first and second climaxes. I think these ideas worked out really well in this recording.

Perhaps Japanese pressing will sound better still?... ???

John,



This Rattle M9 is very good, but lets face it the main climax in the 1st movement isn't all that great, as has been stated by Hurwitz and Barry, the tam-tam and trombones aren't loud enough.
Also overall the brass is too polite even in the two inner movements, compare to Abbado/BPO or even Barenboim. That being said everything else is very good, and I don't mind if Rattle is a bit too fast in the central section of the R-B. I like this performance more than the Carnegie Hall concert. The timings are very similar to Karajan II which still ranks very highly with me, but I would still put Bertini/Koln/EMI ahead of both of them, Bertini seems to really get inside this music with a deep understanding which holds my attention right to the end.

Vatz

 
 

Offline Leo K

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Re: Barry writes about Rattle/BPO/EMI M9th CD on amazon.com (5/5 rating)
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2008, 12:12:43 AM »
This M9 impresses more with each listen...the nuance in the various details continue to take my breath away, and the BPO play with passion and dedication...they really sing!  The overall pacing of each movement has the spontaneity of discovery...there is a flow that captures my imagination.


--Todd


 

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