Author Topic: Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6  (Read 15177 times)

Offline Leo K

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Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6
« on: April 16, 2008, 06:13:55 PM »
Performance: 7
Sound: 8

These thoughts come after hearing this new release three times, and also after comparing with Haitink's LSO broadcast from 2004.  I have gone back and forth in appreciating and questioning this new M6 from Haitink.

I urge anyone who likes a slower M6 to try the Haitink CSO M6, which plays out more like a thoughtful memoir than as a charging, blazing march through life.  As slow performances go, it is among the most thoughtful I've heard.  I wouldn't say it is better than the Martin Sieghart M6 (with the Arnhem Phil on Exton), but in phrasing and detail it is hard to beat as far as super slow performances go.  Since this is not a "hot" M6, I wouldn't say this is a first choice for newcomers to the M6, but as a fan off all kinds of approaches, I still feel this M6 is a deeply moving performance.  In comparing this performance with Haitinks' great LSO M6 broadcast from 2004 I now strongly feel the  LSO M6 has an edge over the CSO.  The drama is just a tad more tighter and the hammerblows are vastly superior.  Also, the CSO scherzo and andante don't quite live up to the majesty or inspiration of the LSO version.

This new Haitink/CSO release has better sound over the MTT, Jansons, and Eschenbach.  Yet, the Sieghart/Arnheim/Exton and Macal/CPO/Exton are the best sounding M6's (I haven't heard the new Gergiev yet).

These days, my favorite M6 is the Sanderling/St.Petersburg Phil/RS...it is just so dang exciting, and this may sound superficial, but the tamtam is actually quite important to me when it comes to this work, and this has the best captured tamtam I've yet heard in the M6...that could be the main reason I really reach out to this particular recording.

The new Macal/CPO/Exton and Eschenbach/PO/Ondine are other blazing M6's.

As far as very slow performances go, the Martin Siehart, which I already mentioned above, is quite good and a real powerful monster of an M6, and is perhaps the best in sound (SACD Stereo).  Still, the best slower M6 is the Haitink/LSO live broadcast from 2004.


--Todd   







« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 06:24:31 PM by Leo K »

Offline John Kim

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Re: Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2008, 07:22:41 PM »
Thanks for the report, Todd.

I have the live Haitink/LSO recording ans rate it as one of the most powerful renditions of this work. Having not heard the new Haitink/CSO version, nor the Gergiev, I will stick to my own favorites:

Tennstedt/LPO/EMI (live)
Levi/ASO/Telarc
Bernstein/NYPO/Sony
Haitink/LSO (live)

and perhaps the Jansons and the Eschenbach.

I like the Sanderling but it has a serious flaw in the Finale; near the end where the music leads to the false triumph, trumpet stumbles and ruins the whole passage. Also, the sound is rather flat without much depth.

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2008, 06:49:12 PM »
"This new Haitink/CSO (M6) release has better sound over the MTT, Jansons, and Eschenbach"

Boy Todd, here's a point that I just can't agree with you on. I think that James Mallinson's way of recording, somehow emphasizes that the stage of Orchestra Hall is too shallow for the strong brass of the CSO (or to put that another way, the perception of "strong brass" in Chicago has a lot to do with the stage and its acoustics). It's nice that you can clearly hear the harmony in the trombone writing (but woodwinds, as is so often the case with the CSO, get covered over in many spots), but the trumpets often times sound like they're sitting in the very front, right next to the second violins and violas.

If you consider balances as an important part of "sound", I feel that both the Jansons/Concertgebouw and Eschenbach recordings have far better sound (perhaps you were thinking Jansons/LSO).

As I said in my review for Classicstoday - and I'm not trying to sound haughty here - I could have forgiven so much of the sluggishness in the first three movements, if Haitink had turned in a truly knock-out performance of the finale. But in my opinion, his finale can't hold a candle to those in the two recordings you just mentioned (again, assuming that mean Janson's Concertgebouw recording). Here's a litany of problems I see in Haitink's Chicago finale:

1. Near the start of the finale, Haitink takes that brief, little chorale-sounding dirge for low woodwinds (followed by the low brass) at an unbelievable crawl, but then almost rushes the last A-major to A-minor chord meltdown, just before the start of the first allegro (fast) episode. That's the one spot where he could have done a huge ritard (slow down) to truly great effect. I find that his intro. section isn't the slightest bit frightening; just dark, sluggish, and, ultimately, uninteresting - a microcosm of the whole performance in general.

2. He doesn't objectify the differences between the two hammer strokes, aside from using the optional reinforcement of the second stroke (cymbals & tam-tam). What do I mean by that?

Listen to the Gergiev M6 at these spots (Tennstedt 1991 too). Gergiev speeds up greatly through that chromatic sludge (half-step harmonies) leading up to the first hammer stroke, but then approaches the second hammer stroke with great trepidation (slow!!). Musically, this helps to objectify the differences between the two strokes (as mentioned). In terms of the symphony's narrative, it emphasizes the idea that Mahler's troupes ("hero", whatever you want to call the protagonist of the subtext) barge into the cataclysm of the first hammer stroke with an almost naive enthusiasm, but then know better when feeling their way towards the second one (which is an ever greater whirlpool of mayhem). Haitink uses tempi that are much more unified for the sections that lead up to the two hammer strokes. In this case, I just don't feel that that's a good thing for the reasons I just mentioned.

3. At the first hammer stroke:

The stroke itself isn't particularly overwhelming, but then the brass overbalance everything else (THAT Chicago problem). It's here where the trumpets sound as though they're seated right in the very front. Just compare this very, very same passage with either Jansons/RCO (excellent here) or Eschenbach/Philly.


4. The passage between the two hammer strokes - what I like to call, "the wild ride of the headless horsemen across the scorched battle plains of Europe" (because that's the image that I conjure up in my mind) - shows little or no imagination. This is one passage where MTT was excellent - listen to what he does through here. Frankly, Gergiev doesn't do a whole lot with this particular section either (but he's rhythmically excellent).

5. And this one's the clincher   .    .     .

Go to the brief passage that I like to call, "the false victory parade". It's very brief, and it's located before the last tam-tam smash in the movement, which signals the return of the movement's opening music for the last time (it sounds like the theme music to "Fanasy Island" - "the plane, the plane!"). At this particular spot, Haitink has his horns belt out that ridiculous sounding march melody - truly THE definition of "banal", used so often by Mahler's detractors - at a true fortissimo, which is great. He also does a big ritard going into this passage. But then Haitink fails to bring out the percussion underneath the horns, which is a big mistake. Why is this important?     .     .   

Two reasons: First, it's important because it brings back the "fate" rhythmic motif from the first movement, but in a supposed "victorious" context (in major, instead of minor). That's THE point of the entire symphony, up to now. The forces of good have finally and fully, defeated the forces of darkness; once and for all (but not really!). The other reason is purely musical: it's like watching a big marching band going down the avenue, with lots of brass, but with way too few drummers in the band. Think about that.

Again, compare this very same passage to the one that's on the new Gergiev recording. It's a subtle but huge world of difference.

As usual, I've elaborated a lot. But the reason that I assigned this recording an 8 for sound, was not because it didn't have a big, or even open sound; but because of the issue of balances: trumpets too far forward; woodwinds often times covered over (woodwinds aren't a strong point of the Gergiev one either); percussion too far out towards the back, except for the timpani (percussion are better integrated on the Gergiev M6).

These are all the reasons why I called Haitink's finale, "poorly conceived". For a finale that is over 34 minutes long, I think that the Sinopoli one is actually much more interesting - even if it's not always as well played.

Barry



« Last Edit: April 18, 2008, 08:22:32 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline sperlsco

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Re: Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2008, 07:01:31 PM »
This new Haitink/CSO release has better sound over the MTT, Jansons, and Eschenbach.  Yet, the Sieghart/Arnheim/Exton and Macal/CPO/Exton are the best sounding M6's (I haven't heard the new Gergiev yet).

--Todd   

Interesting.  I really can't imagine that anything could have noticeably better sound than the Eschenbach one.  For my money, these Philly/Ondine recordings are absolute reference quality (at least in SACD) -- plus I love the M6 and SS "Organ" Symphony. 
Scott

Offline Leo K

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Re: Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2008, 09:40:55 PM »
Scott, I should amend my comments somewhat, as my hearing isn't up to par (deaf in one ear)...

But yes, I was dissapointed with the sound of the Eschenbach SACD...although I love the performance.  The sound can't compare to the Martin Siegert SACD, which is amazing in clarity, balance, and the lower brass are clearly in the mix...amazing timpani as well. 

--Todd

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2008, 08:24:48 AM »
"The sound can't compare to the Martin Siegert SACD, which is amazing in clarity, balance, and the lower brass are clearly in the mix...amazing timpani as well"

Awesome. Let's hope this bodes well for their Samale/Mazzuca  Mahler 10!

Offline Leo K

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Re: Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2008, 07:45:35 PM »
"The sound can't compare to the Martin Siegert SACD, which is amazing in clarity, balance, and the lower brass are clearly in the mix...amazing timpani as well"

Awesome. Let's hope this bodes well for their Samale/Mazzuca  Mahler 10!

I think the Siegart M10 will feature the same Japanese producer who produces all the Exton disks, so I have high hopes for this M10!!!

--Todd

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2008, 07:26:49 AM »
Yum, yum - me too!  Maybe we're finally getting somewhere with the Mahler 10th - the last truly interesting or important, musical "archaeological dig site" out there (unless you think that discovering some lost Medieval motet is somehow interesting).

B

Offline Leo K

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Re: Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2008, 11:10:31 PM »
"This new Haitink/CSO (M6) release has better sound over the MTT, Jansons, and Eschenbach"

Boy Todd, here's a point that I just can't agree with you on. I think that James Mallinson's way of recording, somehow emphasizes that the stage of Orchestra Hall is too shallow for the strong brass of the CSO (or to put that another way, the perception of "strong brass" in Chicago has a lot to do with the stage and its acoustics). It's nice that you can clearly hear the harmony in the trombone writing (but woodwinds, as is so often the case with the CSO, get covered over in many spots), but the trumpets often times sound like they're sitting in the very front, right next to the second violins and violas.

If you consider balances as an important part of "sound", I feel that both the Jansons/Concertgebouw and Eschenbach recordings have far better sound (perhaps you were thinking Jansons/LSO).

As I said in my review for Classicstoday - and I'm not trying to sound haughty here - I could have forgiven so much of the sluggishness in the first three movements, if Haitink had turned in a truly knock-out performance of the finale. But in my opinion, his finale can't hold a candle to those in the two recordings you just mentioned (again, assuming that mean Janson's Concertgebouw recording). Here's a litany of problems I see in Haitink's Chicago finale:

1. Near the start of the finale, Haitink takes that brief, little chorale-sounding dirge for low woodwinds (followed by the low brass) at an unbelievable crawl, but then almost rushes the last A-major to A-minor chord meltdown, just before the start of the first allegro (fast) episode. That's the one spot where he could have done a huge ritard (slow down) to truly great effect. I find that his intro. section isn't the slightest bit frightening; just dark, sluggish, and, ultimately, uninteresting - a microcosm of the whole performance in general.

2. He doesn't objectify the differences between the two hammer strokes, aside from using the optional reinforcement of the second stroke (cymbals & tam-tam). What do I mean by that?

Listen to the Gergiev M6 at these spots (Tennstedt 1991 too). Gergiev speeds up greatly through that chromatic sludge (half-step harmonies) leading up to the first hammer stroke, but then approaches the second hammer stroke with great trepidation (slow!!). Musically, this helps to objectify the differences between the two strokes (as mentioned). In terms of the symphony's narrative, it emphasizes the idea that Mahler's troupes ("hero", whatever you want to call the protagonist of the subtext) barge into the cataclysm of the first hammer stroke with an almost naive enthusiasm, but then know better when feeling their way towards the second one (which is an ever greater whirlpool of mayhem). Haitink uses tempi that are much more unified for the sections that lead up to the two hammer strokes. In this case, I just don't feel that that's a good thing for the reasons I just mentioned.

3. At the first hammer stroke:

The stroke itself isn't particularly overwhelming, but then the brass overbalance everything else (THAT Chicago problem). It's here where the trumpets sound as though they're seated right in the very front. Just compare this very, very same passage with either Jansons/RCO (excellent here) or Eschenbach/Philly.


4. The passage between the two hammer strokes - what I like to call, "the wild ride of the headless horsemen across the scorched battle plains of Europe" (because that's the image that I conjure up in my mind) - shows little or no imagination. This is one passage where MTT was excellent - listen to what he does through here. Frankly, Gergiev doesn't do a whole lot with this particular section either (but he's rhythmically excellent).

5. And this one's the clincher   .    .     .

Go to the brief passage that I like to call, "the false victory parade". It's very brief, and it's located before the last tam-tam smash in the movement, which signals the return of the movement's opening music for the last time (it sounds like the theme music to "Fanasy Island" - "the plane, the plane!"). At this particular spot, Haitink has his horns belt out that ridiculous sounding march melody - truly THE definition of "banal", used so often by Mahler's detractors - at a true fortissimo, which is great. He also does a big ritard going into this passage. But then Haitink fails to bring out the percussion underneath the horns, which is a big mistake. Why is this important?     .     .   

Two reasons: First, it's important because it brings back the "fate" rhythmic motif from the first movement, but in a supposed "victorious" context (in major, instead of minor). That's THE point of the entire symphony, up to now. The forces of good have finally and fully, defeated the forces of darkness; once and for all (but not really!). The other reason is purely musical: it's like watching a big marching band going down the avenue, with lots of brass, but with way too few drummers in the band. Think about that.

Again, compare this very same passage to the one that's on the new Gergiev recording. It's a subtle but huge world of difference.

As usual, I've elaborated a lot. But the reason that I assigned this recording an 8 for sound, was not because it didn't have a big, or even open sound; but because of the issue of balances: trumpets too far forward; woodwinds often times covered over (woodwinds aren't a strong point of the Gergiev one either); percussion too far out towards the back, except for the timpani (percussion are better integrated on the Gergiev M6).

These are all the reasons why I called Haitink's finale, "poorly conceived". For a finale that is over 34 minutes long, I think that the Sinopoli one is actually much more interesting - even if it's not always as well played.

Barry





Barry, thanks for this response...I don't know how I missed this post!

Anyways, after hearing the Gergiev M6 for the first time yesterday, I understand what you are saying regarding Haitink's dropping the ball during the sections you mention...yes, my definition of sound quality was different then yours...balances are important of course, but due to my hearing impairment I'm not the best judge regarding balance.  In the Haitink I was basing the sound quality on clarity of tone in the harmony of the brass and strings.

The Gergiev M6....is, um, probably the best I've yet heard on SACD for the M6!  The Finale is the best on record for me.

--Todd

 

Offline Psanquin

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Re: Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2008, 12:49:34 AM »
I would be very grateful if somebody could give me the timings of Haitink`s Mahler's Sixth with the Berliner Philharmoniker (Philips).

Regarding the sound I agree with Todd's views about Eschenbach's and Haitink's CSO Mahler Sixth. I find Eschenbach's too dry, and Haitink's impressive, with an outstanding definition.

Offline alpsman

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Re: Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2008, 12:58:17 AM »
Timings for M6 Haitink/Berlin PO/Philips:
22.52
12.52(scherzo)
16.10(andante)
31.07

Offline alpsman

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Re: Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2008, 01:04:40 AM »
Nobody refers the new Inbal M6 in fontec with Tokyo Metropolitan orchestra. It is a sacd,I have it but not listen yet.Anyone??
The first effort of Inbal with FRSO( now Hessiche radio so, i think) is one of the best.

Offline John Kim

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Re: Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2008, 03:05:30 AM »
Nobody refers the new Inbal M6 in fontec with Tokyo Metropolitan orchestra. It is a sacd,I have it but not listen yet.Anyone??
The first effort of Inbal with FRSO( now Hessiche radio so, i think) is one of the best.
Yeah, Inbal's Mahler was always reliable, cogent, and well recorded. But time has changed and we have multiple sets that are pretty competitive against Inbal's set. I liked his M6th along with M7-M9, so naturally am interested in the new M6th.

PL report to us when you complete your listening.

Thanks.

John,

Offline John Kim

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Re: Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2008, 06:32:55 AM »
Inbal also recorded M3 and M9 with Japanese orchestras in late 70's and 90's. Both of them were pretty good. I also heard a live M8th by him with another Japanese orch. That one was pretty darn good too. So, it seems he never disappoints when it comes to Mahler.

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Todd really likes the new Haitink/CSO/RS M6
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2008, 08:27:53 AM »
Nobody refers the new Inbal M6 in fontec with Tokyo Metropolitan orchestra. It is a sacd,I have it but not listen yet.Anyone?? The first effort of Inbal with FRSO( now Hessiche radio so, i think) is one of the best.

I don't know that recording, but I would very much like to hear it. I do have Bertini's remake on Fontec, which is very good. It's similar to his Cologne one in the two outer movements, but the two inner movements are slightly quicker. Clear back when it was released in the middle '80's, Dave Hurwitz has a huge fan of Inbal's Frankfurt M6. I was a bigger fan of the Bertini, once that was released here.

Barry

 

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