Mahler's popularity

[john haueisen]

Amazing Google stats.
Surprises me to see Debussy so high.

[Amphissa]

Arnold Schoenberg    894000
Sergei Rachmaninov + S Rachmaninoff   558000

And Schoenberg ahead of Rachmaninov! As said, we're finally moving on!

 

PT

Anyone who thinks Schoenberg is more popular than Rachmaninoff is drinking some very strange koolaid. Rather, it suggests that, however interesting Google Fights is (and I had a lot of fun playing with it just now), its not giving results that coincide with what we'd normally think of as real world popularity.

There are, I think, 3 good indicators of "popularity" of composers:
1. Concert performances of major orchestral works
2. Polls of public listening preferences
3. Sales (CD/LP and download)

I think a real gauge of popularity would require all three of those indicators. A lot of people do not buy music, but they do listen to the radio. Some go to concerts but rarely if ever buy music. Some people go to concerts and buy CDs, but never listen to the radio.

It's really difficult to get at sales figures of Amazon for music, and I don't use iTunes, so I don't know if sales figures are accessible there.

However, I did look at the performance numbers for American Orchestras for the 2006-2007 Season. This is all U.S. Orchestras that are members of the League of American Orchestras (formerly known as American Orchestra League). This includes almost every orchestra in the U.S., but would not include performances by a festival orchestra put together during summer festivals, that sort of thing. But basically, every established orchestra in the U.S.

In all, there were 3,710 concerts, featuring performances of 11,501 works by 601 composers.

Here are the 20 most performed works during the season:

Brahms SYMPHONY NO. 2 = 72
Tchaikovsky SYMPHONY NO. 6 = 69
Shostakovich SYMPHONY NO. 5 = 66
Brahms SYMPHONY NO. 1 = 62
Rimsky-Korsakov SCHEHEREZADE = 62
Brahms CONCERTO FOR VIOLIN = 62
Beethoven SYMPHONY NO. 3 = 58
Brahms CONCERTO FOR PIANO, NO. 1 = 54
Berlioz SYMPHONIE FANTASTIQUE = 52
Beethoven SYMPHONY NO. 5 = 51
Rachmaninoff RHAPSODY ON A THEME OF PAGANINI = 48
Tchaikovsky CONCERTO FOR VIOLIN = 48
Brahms SYMPHONY NO. 4 = 48
Mendelssohn CONCERTO FOR VIOLIN = 46
Tchaikovsky SYMPHONY NO. 4 = 45
Beethoven CONCERTO FOR VIOLIN = 45
Beethoven SYMPHONY NO. 6 = 45
Beethoven SYMPHONY NO. 9 = 45
Debussy LA MER = 44
Bruch CONCERTO FOR VIOLIN = 43
Tchaikovsky CONCERTO FOR PIANO = 43

Here is a quick tally of the number of major works by composers programmed for performance. These numbers are for Major Symphonic Works -- i.e., concertos, symphonies, or other multi-movement, lengthy works (like Respighi's Pines of Rome, Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade, Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances, Debussy's La Mer, etc).

Note: These numbers differ somewhat from the list of most performed works above. Best I can figure out how they are tallying their numbers works like this -- for example,  Debussy's La Mer was programmed for performance by 20 orchestras during the season. Some of those orchestras performed it several times, resulting in the count of 44 performances above. My list below indicates the number of orchestras who scheduled each major symphonic work by a composer for performance, not the number of times it was performed. So similarly, as another example, Scheherazade was scheduled by 26 orchestras during the season (my list below) and played 62 times (the list above).

So, with that confusion dispensed with, here are the total number of times Mahler Symphonies were programmed by U.S. orchestras in the 2006-2007 season:
M1 = 18
M2 = 8
M3 = 6
M4 = 12
M5 = 8
M6 = 2
M7 = 5
M9 = 2
M10= 4
Other Orchestral Works = 4
Total U.S. Performances = 69

Compare that to the number of major symphonic works programmed by other composers.

Beethoven = 296
Mozart = 233
Brahms = 176
Tchaikovsky = 137
Dvorak = 113
Rachmaninoff = 94
Stravinsky=91
Bach = 86
Strauss = 83
Prokofiev = 69
Mahler = 69
Sibelius = 67
Schumann = 63
Ravel = 51
Rimsky-Korsakov = 46
Saint-Saens = 42
Schubert = 35
Debussy = 34
Respighi = 32
Vaughan Williams = 23
Bruckner = 22
Schoenberg = 14 (Verklarte Nacht = 7)

So, Mahler makes it into the top 10. (But sorry, Schoenberg is nowhere near Rachmaninoff.)

As for radio listener polls, I seem to remember seeing polls from BBC and from Australia ABC in the past, but since the performance results are limited to the U.S., maybe the radio listener's poll should be limited to the U.S. as well. The only poll I am familiar with (maybe someone can contribute results from other stations) are the polls conducted annually by WQXR in New York. Now, I would not pretend that the results from WQXR coincide with national classical music interest. But it is probably the single largest listening audience of any classical radio station in the country.

The WQXR Top 10 Favorite Works for 2007-2008

1  Beethoven  Symphony No. 9 in d, Op. 125 "Choral"
2  Beethoven  Symphony No. 7 in A, Op. 92
3  Beethoven  Symphony No. 5 in c, Op. 67
4  Dvorak  Symphony No. 9 in e, Op. 95 "From the New World"
5  Beethoven  Piano Concerto No. 5 in E flat, Op 73 "Emperor"
6  Mahler  Symphony No. 2 in c, "Resurrection"
7  Rachmaninoff  Piano Concerto No. 2 in c, Op. 18
8  Beethoven  Symphony No. 6 in F, Op. 68 "Pastoral"
9  Stravinsky  Le Sacre du Printemps (Rite of Spring)
10  Mozart  Requiem in d, K 626

So, Mahler once again appears in the top 10. So does Rachmaninoff -- sorry, no Schoenberg. However, as evidence that this listening audience may not be particularly representative of the rest of the country, there is Stravinsky at #9.

The list, though, has not really changed much over the past half-decade. Here is the poll for 2002-2003:
1: Beethoven: Symphony No 9 “Choral”
2: Beethoven: Symphony No 5
3: Beethoven: Symphony No 7
4: Vivaldi: Four Seasons
5: Beethoven: Piano Concerto No 5 “Emperor”
6: Bach: Brandenburg Concerti
7: Beethoven: Symphony No 6 “Pastorale”
8: Dvorak: Symphony No 9 “From the New World”
9: Mahler: Symphony No 2 “Resurrection”
10: Rachmaninoff: Piano Concerto No 2

Instead of Stravinsky, we see another outlier -- Vivaldi. The real question to me is: Where's Brahms. But if you go further in the list, you find him.

Top 40 favorites -- composers with multiple works:
Beethoven = 6
Mozart = 5
Brahms = 3
Rachmaninoff = 3
Mahler = 3
Tchaikovsky = 3
Bach = 3

So, in sum, I'd say that Mahler is in the Top 10 of composers in terms of performances by U.S. orchestras and his symphony No. 2 is among the most popular of all major classical works among a pretty sophisticated audience of classical radio listeners.


If you want to check my numbers (I was never much good at math), here is a link to the League of American Orchestras performance data.
http://www.americanorchestras.org/knowledge_center/orr_current.html

[Polarius T]

But sorry, Schoenberg is nowhere near Rachmaninoff.

I knew it was too good to be true. 

Those stats all actually really interesting to me (and for most of us I'd guess), thanks for putting it all together and posting the useful summaries. I think your points are very relevant, especially the way you divide the "music consumers" into different audience groups. Of them, the radio listeners I in fact had almost (and totally inexcusably of course) forgotten already on this specific issue (may it live long though). Yet even the classical music radio listeners I know personally clearly correspond to the type you present: they seem more sophisticated and generally more knowledgeable than your average music buyer.

Interesting, indeed, even if on the whole this only confirms the expectations (although I wouldn't have thought to see Brahms that high up in orchestral programming).

So we'll keep waiting. 

PT

[Cristian]

Finally, some REAL stats! Thanks a lot, Amphissa!!!

The second table (WQXR Top 10 Favorite Works for 2007-2008) really surprises me. M2 over Rach's PC2, B's Pastoral, Stravinsky's ROS and Mozart's Requiem?

Haring and especially seeing M2 live really makes a lasting impression, but M2 ahead of those "all time classics" wich are known to virtually anyone who listens CM even casually? I think what we got here is a hint of another aspect, namely: that Mahler's fans are much more "militant".

Again, thanks a lot for these stats, they are quite revealing.

Cris.

[Amphissa]

Apologies to all. I inexcusably left out counts for Shostakovich and Haydn. Since 2005-2006 was the celebration year for Shostakovich, many orchestras scheduled his music. If I had included those numbers, I'm sure he would have been in the top 10 of concert performances. I also forgot about Haydn. Barry will probably blast me for that oversight. But frankly, I'm tired of plowing through those reports. I'll leave it to others to add them in.

I'm not surprised to see Brahms performed so much. But then, I love Brahms, so I'm not complaining. I was actually surprised to see Stravinsky so high up that list.

I only vaguely remember the BBC and ABC radio listeners polls. But I do remember that Rachmaninoff was far more popular in those polls. His PC2, PC3 and Sym2 were always very highly listed, with 2 of them usually appearing in the top 10.

I do wonder if European performance records would be quite different. I think a much wider array of music is performed in Europe, and that the radio and television broadcasts allows listeners to hear a much greater variety of music than we get in the U.S. As a result, I think their choices would be very different as well.

[Polarius T]

...But then, I love Brahms, so I'm not complaining. I was actually surprised to see Stravinsky so high up that list.

I'm not complaining, either; only Barry might...

But for all serious Mahlerians Brahms is a must. If in doubt, consult your well-known Schoenberg essay on "Brahms the Progressive," included in his Style and Idea (or ask Reger): Where did such central features of a Mahler symphony as for example asymmetry (of form), irregularity (of phrase length), and what Schoenberg termed the principle of "developing variation" originate if not in Brahms?

As for Stravinsky, I think that's more as expected: you can include a Stravinsky piece in any program you do, regardless of the concept and style you're after; Stravinsky tried (and pretty much perfectly mastered) them all at least twice during his long life span.

PT

[Amphissa]

The interesting thing about Stravinsky is, his early works, all the way up to and including The Firebird, are not innovative at all. He was part of the Balyeyev circle, which included Arensky and Taneyev. Taneyev was thought of as the Russian Brahms, very set on form, but with the added strength of counterpoint, which Brahms did not use much. The Balyeyev circle are often thought to be the path-breakers for the transition to modernism that occurred between 1910-1920 in Russia.

The Balyeyev circle drew upon the ideas of Tchaikovsky and Rimsky-Korsakov. Most people have not listened to Rimsky-Korsakov's late works, especially his operas. Rimsky-Korsakov's octatonic harmonic idiom was a goldmine for those wanting to move into more modernist composition. In the octatonic scale, half-notes alternate with whole notes, and the harmonic functions are comparable to those of the whole-tone scale. He used this for portrayal of all of his "fantastical" subjects in his operas. (And his operas were mostly about myths, legends, and fantasy subjects.)

Stravinsky used the octatonic scale extensively. However, The Firebird made him a celebrity in Paris, whereas he was just one of many composers doing the same thing in Russia. This is what he needed to begin composing more experimental works.

My point is, for those looking for the roots of modernism often forget Rimsky-Korsakov. He wrote much more than Scheherazade and Flight of the Bumblebee. His best music is in his operas, and his most innovative harmonic ideas appeared in his later works. As for other members of the Balyeyev circle, Taneyev was a major composer of the era, sadly forgotten now. That is surely because he wrote mostly chamber music -- only 4 symphonies. The Russian chamber music competition and festival is named for him. Of course, he and Arensky had a few students you probably heard of -- Rachmaninoff and Scriabin.

Rachmaninoff carried the flame of Tchaikovsky to the West. Scriabin built upon the late ideas of Rimsky-Korsakov to become the great innovator within Russia, relying very heavily on octatonic scale. And three others became their heirs, the great triumvirate of Russian composers of the Soviet era. Prokofiev, Shostakovich, and the other, now forgotten, Myaskovsky.

Polarius, you wait for the day Schoenberg will be popular. I wait for the day Myaskovsky will be rediscovered the way Shostakovich was. Because, IMO, his music is better than Shostakovich.

What does this have to do with Mahler? Probably nothing. Just holiday rambling about things that interest me.

Recommended listening:
Taneyev - John of Damascus, Oresteia Overture, Symphony No. 4
Myaskovsky - Symphonies 5, 6, 21, "Silence" symphonic poem, and in the great romantic tradition, his Violin Concerto, Cello Concerto, Symphonies 15, 25 & 27
Rimsky-Korsakov - Sadko, Skazka ("The Tale") symphonic poem.

[Polarius T]

I'll just add a few titles to the list of recommendations you give in your appealing writeup whose impetus is easy to agree with:

- Myaskovsky: Sviatoslav Richter (who else!?) will make new converts with his account of the 3rd Piano Sonata; there are several recordings, of which the best one, interpretatively (in my view) and engineeringwise (for sure), is a live taping from '73, issued by Pyramid in France if only anyone can find it in used CDs stores or somewhere in the online jungle (OOP long time ago).

- Taneyev: ditto for the chamber music disc by -- just read these names aloud to yourself! -- Pletnev, Gringolts, Vadim Repin, Lynn Harrell (so good to hear from him), and Nobuko Imai, out on DG just a couple of years ago.

Btw, have you heard his (Taneyev) cantata "At the Reading of a Psalm" (with Pletnev conducting, an early Pentatone box set IIRC)?

Both are great.

PT

[Cristian]

Here's some more relevant data out of Vincent's site: http://gustavmahler.net.free.fr/us.html

Recordings by decade.

 


 


An important note regarding these data is also that many of those 30's-70's recordings listed in Vincent's site were not available at that time. Instead, they were released in recent years (mostly in the 2000's).

If someone is interested in getting the spreadsheet, please PM me

Regards,
Cris.