Author Topic: Mehta's M7 recording.  (Read 10573 times)

Offline alpsman

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Mehta's M7 recording.
« on: July 24, 2008, 06:25:21 PM »
I just listen M7 with Zubin Mehta conducting, in a live recording with Israel Ph.
I bought this recording from iTunes. It's an anniversary compilation for IPO with works of Schubert(9th symp.), Brahms(4th), Dvorak(9th),M7, Prokofiev violin con.,a piece of someone unknown author-there is no information at all!!Only the title,of a piece from someone contemporary and i think Israeli composer.
I send a message but no voice in the wildness( as scripts say). This is outrageous and unkindly treatment from Decca.
The set can burn at 4 full cd's and it costs me 19.9 euros.

For M7:
Timings
overall 76.50(with apllause at the end)

22.09
14.28
9.30
12.03
18.37

The sound is quite good-not dry and hard as other recordings from Mann Auditorium( but maybe it's not from this venue-we have no informations remember?).

Mehta plays the first bars like no one else i have heard. The rhythmic pattern is very clear and crispy articulated. I think very strongly that Mehta plays the tremolo not in 32rd notes, but as semiquavers.
The middle movements are quite good-especially the second Nachtmusik. The scherzo has not the strong rhythmic profile of Abbado's, and the cowbells are rather thin.
The finale begins quite good, but the jolly cries from woodwinds are not clear and crisp like Tilson Thomas's LSO recording.The last bars are decent but no revelatory.

So,
a lot of quite good and decent remarks. I think it's not a memorable event but not bad either. One strong point is the various jew episodes, which the israelies play with such feeling. On the other hand no decadence and Wien fin- de-siecle frisson.


Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Mehta's M7 recording.
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2008, 08:15:11 PM »
Thank you for this quick review. There is one thing that I'd like to point-out or discuss:

Mehta plays the first bars like no one else i have heard. The rhythmic pattern is very clear and crispy articulated. I think very strongly that Mehta plays the tremolo not in 32rd notes, but as semiquavers.

I never fully understood the English nomenclature for note values, so I'll just have to speak in good-old American speak. The meter at the beginning of the symphony is a subdivided 4 beat pattern (8 quicker beats, in other words); so the eighth note gets a full beat. Therefore, 32nd notes at this subdivided tempo shouldn't sound that fast anyway. Many conductors just allow the high strings to make a tremelo, which is clearly wrong. In other words, regardless of just how fast or slow the conductor takes this, each of those notes should be clearly articulated (just as you observed). All of this becomes obvious when one takes a quick look at the score.

Barry

Offline alpsman

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Re: Mehta's M7 recording.
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2008, 08:50:06 PM »
Barry,
I know exactly what you say, but I thing that the basic tempo of Mehta is in 4, as with the other conductors, and plays the tremolo much "slower".
I thing this is not the case of beating in 8 and so have the tremolos "clearer and slower". This is my impression. He articulates very different from other performances I know, and I thing that plays with the rhythm.
Maybe i can notice like that. It goes somehow:

Taa-ta-ta-Taa-ta-ta-Ta-Ta-Ta-Ta-Ta-Ta-Ta-Ta-Ta.
In other versions the last 2 beats contains much more notes, are more thick.

Offline alpsman

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Re: Mehta's M7 recording.
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2008, 09:03:05 PM »
Yes the situation begins to clear.
I just listen to Sinopoli on DG and the phrasing is the same as Mehta( and is much better, Sinopoli i mean).
Maybe there are also other conductors with the same treatment.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Mehta's M7 recording.
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2008, 09:44:46 PM »
Taa-ta-ta-Taa-ta-ta-Ta-Ta-Ta-Ta-Ta-Ta-Ta-Ta-Ta.

Yep! - that's what's written. Believe it or not, any large deviation from that is actually wrong.

I have a feeling that there must be printed parts that show a tremelo instead. The 7th allegedly has had a big number of small errors that have had to be corrected in both the scores, and the individual parts. Maybe this is one of those spots.

Here's another problem (or a different way of looking at the same problem): when they take this opening quick, they often times short-change the correct duration for those long notes("Taa" really ought to be more like "Taaaaa"). It really ought to be conducted just as though you were doing the start of Handel's Messiah, or any other baroque era work where "double-dotted" rhythms are a common feature. That just seems so obvious to me.

Offline Dave H

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Re: Mehta's M7 recording.
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2008, 09:26:57 PM »
Let me offer the argument for tremolos: Barry is correct, the notation is actually 32nds, but any note with three strokes through its tail (or above or below in the case of whole notes) can also be played tremolo. It's just one of the great ambiguities of musical notation. It's a huge problem in timpani parts. In the Viennese classical tradition, as H.C. Robbons Landon and others have shown, even a single line can be interpreted as a tremolo and was clearly meant to be played that way though it seldom is now (for example, the timpani part at "and there was light!" in The Creation). In string parts where there might be an issue, composers often write the word "tremolo," but then just as often they don't. Some, like Berlioz and Tchaikovsky, use more than three strokes when they want tremolos, particularly in slow tempos, but the "3=tremolo" convention is very old.

For example, Mahler does write "trem." at the beginning of the Second Symphony, but he does not at the beginning of the finale or for the strings at the final reprise of the great chorale at the end--and the notation is exactly the same. But the most telling notational evidence comes from that king of the tremolo, Bruckner. He often declines to write "trem," and never uses more than three strokes over a note, and yet almost everyone plays his string parts notated that way as tremolos. Imagine the openings of the last three symphonies played as distinct 32nds in the strings! The actual performance tradition, never mind the sound of the music, requires tremolos. One person who does not follow this convention is Kubelik in those loud, "cosmic void" fanfares in the Adagio of the Ninth (on Audite), and the result is so strange sounding that it's quite startling.

So the evidence of the score at the beginning of Mahler's Seventh strikes me as very ambiguous. Yes, it's possible to play distinct 32nd notes, but the presence of simultaneous rolls on the bass drum, and tremolos in the clarinets, suggests to me that this is incorrect. I think we are dealing here with one of those stylistic conventions that Mahler did not feel the need to notate precisely because it was universally understood. If he wanted 32nds, he might have done what many composers do--write dots (.....) over the half notes to indicate that they should be clearly articulated. So it's not correct to say that tremolos are wrong, citing the score as evidence. Personally, I prefer tremolos--I think it sounds more mysterious, atmospheric, and the rhythms come off as less four-square.

Dave H
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 09:29:42 PM by Dave H »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Mehta's M7 recording.
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2008, 11:05:55 PM »
I don't know, Dave. I'm not sure that I buy that argument - well argued as you've made it - only because Mahler makes such a clear distinction between 32nd notes and 16th notes throughout that entire opening. For example - and I'm going by memory here (I'm at work) - the tenor horn has 32nd notes, while the trumpets and clarinets - also playing similar sequential patterns of a long note, followed quickly by two shorter notes - have 16th notes instead. This is why I feel that the opening of M7, as well as much of the faster portions, are simply played too fast, too frequently. There needs to be a clear distinction in the rhythms that Mahler writes. The 16th notes should sound twice as long as the 32nd ones. I believe that his baroque-like, "double dotted" rhythms are very deliberate.

If we're going to voice preferences, I definitely prefer clearly delineated notes to the usual tremelo. For me, that provides better ear candy than just nebulous rolls and tremelos. To each their own, I suppose. Either way, it's still a great piece, with still a long ways to go after its atmospheric opening.

I also feel that conductors don't intervene enough in getting the trombones (tuba also?) to make their crescendos in the bars immediately after those that we're discussing above. Those crescendos need to be at least somewhat noticeable. As I recall, Segerstam was really good on this particular detail.

Barry

Offline alpsman

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Re: Mehta's M7 recording.
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2008, 11:14:13 PM »
We have a similar matter at the beggining of Beethoven's 9th. Toscanini played the tremolos clearly and crispy articulated and with accents to separate the beats. On the contrary Furtwangler plays a cloud of notes, creating a misty and misterious atmosphere.
There is a well known inncident when Furt. left after these first bars, a Toscanini concert he attended, saying: "Bloody timekeeper" for his rival.

Offline Dave H

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Re: Mehta's M7 recording.
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2008, 11:22:18 PM »
Well Barry, I'm not suggesting you have to buy my explanation because I'm not saying that your view is wrong--merely that mine isn't either. I just think the score is ambiguous on this point. Let me throw out another argument in favor of tremolos, and you can let me know what you think. In the recapitulation, when the introduction returns, the texture is as close to that of the gnarly "dead nature" music in the opening movement of the Third Symphony as makes no difference. And the triple-stroke string notes there are always played as tremolos even though Mahler doesn't specifically ask for them. Similarly, in the quiet moments leading up the "moonlight" episode, much of the music is accompanied by a high, soft, tremolo on the violins--again, same notation, but it's always played tremolo. You may be right that the context at the symphony's opening makes measured 32nds a reasonable option, but it remains just that--an option.

Hope we can talk soon!

Dave

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Mehta's M7 recording.
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2008, 11:44:57 PM »
Yeah, but I've got 5 stars  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D and you've only got one  :-[. Seriously, your points are very well taken, Dave. In addition, it's become more common to treat the long notes for the mandolin in the 5th movement as tremelos, which I definitely prefer (since, like a piano, a mandolin can't sustain a long note). So, there's an example of a solid argument for tremelos where there are none written.

 But back in the first movement, the first time I heard the 32nd notes treated as clearly delineated notes, I really liked it. It just struck me as sounding right.

Barry
« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 12:23:18 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Dave H

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Re: Mehta's M7 recording.
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2008, 01:59:57 AM »
Good point. What do I have to do to get those extra stars? How many postings=a star? And what comes after "Newbie?" Tadpole? Larva?

Dave H

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Mehta's M7 recording.
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2008, 02:01:51 AM »
Newt, as in Gingrich.    ;)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 02:04:04 AM by barry guerrero »

 

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