Symphony 10: Der Heimgang im Traum

[Dave H]

Barry:

As I said, and will say for the last time, I have no problem with anyone's PREFERENCE as long as it's clear what actual evidence there is, and guesswork is admitted to be just that. I do not deny that bass drums existed in marching bands--just that there is no evidence (a) for one here (indeed, no evidence of a band or music of any kind), or (b) in Mahler's sketches (in one of the very few instrumental cues he bothered, of necessity, to write down). The viability of single, isolated bass drum strokes arising from total silence in an outdoor context, which I doubt either of us has ever heard despite our marching band experience, is similarly a matter of conjecture or opinion, and you know I respect and value your thoughts as much as my own. My concern, as always in these cases, is that we keep our story straight as regards what few facts we have, and cleary distinguish personal taste from the historical reality of what we know.

Dave H

[barry guerrero]

So you're saying that there may not have been a band involved at all (?). Wow; OK; I suppose. It just strikes me odd that there would be some sort of service outside the window of Mahler's apartment building, and somebody just brought a military drum along. Whatever. I'll just have to locate that Poloroid photo  that Mahler's housekeeper took out the window - truly a great Kodak moment.

[Dave H]

Barry:

First--HOLY CRAP! I FINALLY GOT ANOTHER STAR!

Now, why is it unusual that there might not have been a band involved? Alma mentioned no music--just a commotion outside. Furthermore, haven't you ever heard of a procession with just drums? I sure have. How many parades feature people marching with just a few folks in front carry a banner, a flag, and a couple of rhythm instruments? And don't you think, Mahler being Mahler, that the "completely muffled drum" that he wrote into his sketch for the Tenth is called that because he wanted a sound different from that of the usual bass drum? Why are you assuming that the sound that they heard must necessarily have been of low pitch? It could very well have been short, sharp, and of relatively higher (or at least mid-level) pitch. The point is that it was muffled, not that it was deep. I know that's not how you hear it and how you prefer it, but I'm struck by this assumed image of a "big band" procession of some sort. It couldn't have been that large--there was a funeral oration given to the assembled crowd, without microphones let us not forget, so we are necessarily talking about an event of small or modest size.

Dave H

[barry guerrero]

Seems like we're beating a dead horse here - either that, or a choice between two different drums. Anywayyyyyy   .     .   .    I would have assumed that there would have been a band at that this particular procession. Alma does make mention of a procession. Either that, or those who have written program notes for M10 recordings (Jack Diether, Jerry Bruck, Colin Mattews) just assumed that there was a procession. This particular fireman's death made the N.Y. papers. He had died both heroically and tragically while in the line of duty. So, it was a big story at that moment. We're talking midtown (uptown?) Manhattan near the turn of the century, so I certainly think that there must have been bands around for such occasions - perhaps a policeman's band, even.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. You've made your point by sticking to what little known facts that there are.

[Dave H]

Seek and ye shall find! Anyone can read the actual obituary notice of fireman Charles W. Kruger by doing a search at the NY Times website. The entire funeral procession is described in extraordinary detail. There was a band, stationed in front of the church in which the memorial service was conducted (it played "Nearer My God to Thee"--the music of the service is described in detail). There's no mention of a marching band during the parade, but we can probably assume that it was likely present for the big procession up Fifth Ave.

The parade to the church was massive, but the procession after the service, which was merely to escort the coffin part of the way to Woodlawn cemetery in the Bronx, was much smaller (it seems on the order of a few hundred people, firemen only), and it was this smaller procession that Mahler actually witnessed (the article gives the exact route, which would have taken it by his apartment/hotel). Although the article does not say, it seems to me from the description that the band would not have participated in the post-memorial procession, but of course it might have. In any case, I love it when we can put some real flesh on what is otherwise rampant speculation!

Dave H

[barry guerrero]

I prefer rampant speculation, but only when it's from me. After all, I'm a five star hero   

[Don]

Thanks for the mention of the NYT article Dave H. I looked it up and found it most interesting but frustrating. With all the detail in the article, what was played and by how many, who was there, what was said, etc. You would have thought that the writer would have mentioned the size of the drums and if there was one that followed the casket to the cemetery! 

Rampant speculation continued... one would think it would have been a rather unique foreboding sound to capture Mahler's attention. Maybe he was thinking of the hammer blows from the 6th?

[Dave H]

Don-

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Less important than what instrument played that single drum stroke is the sense of what its sound must be--short, sharp, muffled, fateful, full of foreboding. To be honest, I'm not sure that Mahler cared what instrument would get used as long as it had the right emotional qualities, and there are certainly several ways to achieve the desired effect. However, I am certain that he would NOT have wanted the sound of a normal bass drum--his written intentions are clear in this respect, and beyond that, the whole point is that this sound should be different from a typical thud on a bass drum. Otherwise, what would be the point? What attracted him to this sound in the first place was precisely its sense of differentness, and I agree with you that he surely had the Sixth's hammer blows in mind as well. The intention there is quite similar, and there we know that he had in mind a particular kind of sound, and not a specific instrument or means of producing it.

Dave H

[barry guerrero]

Yeah, but all these modern floor tom-toms that people pass off as being "tenor drums" - struck with hard, modern sticks - just ain't it! If they took the time and trouble to find an old-style, long military drum - lots of wood on the shell; calf skin head; not too tightly wrenched down - and struck it with a stick that isn't too narrow, then you might get something more authentic sounding. Otherwise, if they can't come up with something along those lines, I'd much rather that they use a plain-old bass drum.

If you can't really drape a cloth on a bass drum (I've seen it done, actually; especially with the ones you can tilt sideways), you can experiment with different mallets, and moving the drum to different locations. I still think that doing bass drum shots slightly offstage - or maybe even far offstage, played really loudly - could work just fine.

Personally, I think it's rather important that the dynamics for the drum somewhat follow the dynamics of the music surrounding each stroke. At the start, since the tuba and sustained chords are rather low in volume, the "drum" (boy, do I want to write "bass drum") shouldn't blow you out of the room. But later on, when the drum returns - long after the flute solo has been passed off to the violins - then it can be very loud and threatening, as the tuba plays his/her (Philadelphia) upper register scale runs quite loudly; not to mention the "dah-dah-daaaaaaah" gestures from the trumpets. To me, that just makes better musical sense.

To me, at least half of the M10 recordings out there have really crappy sounding solo drums. Too soft - too loud; too thuddy - too hard sounding; you name it.

[Dave H]

I think the variable dynamics certainly make sense, with one proviso. "Muffled" doesn't necessarily mean soft, and there's a world of difference in tone quality (as Mahler knew well) between a loud sound heard softly, from afar, and an instrument played quietly. Given the circumstances that Alma relates--they were on an upper floor some distance away from the actual event (they could not hear a word of the speech, for example), the drum stroke must have been played loudly to reach them at all, so some experimentation with offstage perspectives might be in order here, and it would be a very "Mahlerish" thing to do--have it start offstage and then seem to get nearer until the climax of the lyrical flute melody, when it should be onstage. But you really do have to get over your bass drum fixation, Barry. The fact that many performances get the sound wrong is not an argument in its favor--and I do think basic pitch is too low and the timbre too diffuse for what Mahler had in mind, particularly if you want to employ a wide range of dynamics. Despite being muffled, the sound must have been quite penetrating, and this suggests some sharpness, and higher overtones. There are many options besides lousy modern tom-toms hit with the wrong sticks (and don't tell me that I'm beating a dead horse--I thought we were done here until you continued the conversation!). Actually, now that I think about it, maybe beating a dead horse would give us just the sound that Mahler had in mind. We've tried everything else. 

Dave H