Author Topic: Zinman Cycle Upcoming?  (Read 8992 times)

Wunderhorn

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Zinman Cycle Upcoming?
« on: February 01, 2007, 07:51:09 PM »
Zinman has recorded the 1st (Blumine included) with the Tonhalle, an orchestra he has successfully recorded with in Beethoven complete symphonies, Strauss complete tone-poems, and Schumann complete symphonies. The Zinman MI just came out on RCA at a low price for its Hybrid format. Does anyone have info on if it will be another cycle?

BorisG

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Re: Zinman Cycle Upcoming?
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2007, 09:52:05 PM »
Zinman has recorded the 1st (Blumine included) with the Tonhalle, an orchestra he has successfully recorded with in Beethoven complete symphonies, Strauss complete tone-poems, and Schumann complete symphonies. The Zinman MI just came out on RCA at a low price for its Hybrid format. Does anyone have info on if it will be another cycle?

1 is now available in Japan. 23 February in Germany. HMV Japan says March for 2.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Zinman Cycle Upcoming?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2007, 08:09:32 AM »
My understanding is that it will, indeed, be a complete cycle. I like Zinman very much. I was hopeful that he was going to get the S.F. job instead of MTT.

Barry

Wunderhorn

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Re: Zinman Cycle Upcoming?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2007, 09:45:08 AM »
Zinman has recorded the 1st (Blumine included) with the Tonhalle, an orchestra he has successfully recorded with in Beethoven complete symphonies, Strauss complete tone-poems, and Schumann complete symphonies. The Zinman MI just came out on RCA at a low price for its Hybrid format. Does anyone have info on if it will be another cycle?

1 is now available in Japan. 23 February in Germany. HMV Japan says March for 2.

I saw it at CD UNIVERSE for almost budget price from RCA, which is only right because the cycles I mention are practically being given away on ArtNova.

BorisG

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Re: Zinman Cycle Upcoming?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2007, 06:31:23 PM »
Zinman has recorded the 1st (Blumine included) with the Tonhalle, an orchestra he has successfully recorded with in Beethoven complete symphonies, Strauss complete tone-poems, and Schumann complete symphonies. The Zinman MI just came out on RCA at a low price for its Hybrid format. Does anyone have info on if it will be another cycle?

1 is now available in Japan. 23 February in Germany. HMV Japan says March for 2.

I saw it at CD UNIVERSE for almost budget price from RCA, which is only right because the cycles I mention are practically being given away on ArtNova.

A good price at CDU for the Mahler 1 pre-order. Looks like Z has tacked on Blumine, instead of inserting it. I am interested to hear if the Mahler 1 is big or chamber like. Mahler 2 needs to be massive. Some of his Beethoven sounds anemic.

Wunderhorn

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Re: Zinman Cycle Upcoming?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2007, 06:25:00 AM »
As I've mentioned, the first of Zinman's possible series is 'Der Titan' with the filler 'Blumine' released by RCA (SACD) for around $11.99. Just goes to show how the MTT series is ripping of Mahler fans. It seems the market can't even agree on a standard price for SACD's. It also seems that they haven't fully mastered how to get agreeable sound from the new technology, as I've heard many complaints about poor acoustics.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Zinman Cycle Upcoming?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2007, 07:21:01 AM »
"Just goes to show how the MTT series is ripping off Mahler fans"

.    .    .    more ways than one. As I said, I really wanted Zinman to have been chosen as our conductor instead (S.F.). But once MTT arrived, I was heartened by some excellent performances he gave of the Ives 4th, Varese's "Ameriques", and the Mahler 8th. That first M8 was wonderful! Then I heard MTT do M8 for a second time (he's done it in three separate seasons so far), and I noticed some not-so-subtle changes that I found to be slightly disturbing. Then I was greatly disappointed by the M6 that everybody was claiming to be so wonderful. From there, it's seems to have only gotten worse (I know, "gotten" ain't no word). I feel that the Zinman M6 in S.F. was far better - far more on the mark - than MTT's. The last time I heard the SFSO under MTT - the Mahler 7th - I was hugely disappointed and disturbed by the sound of the orchestra. Yet, when Rostroprovich came here to do an all Shostakovich program, they sounded every bit as thick, powerful, and darkly hued as Chicago or Philadelphia. I seriously look forward to the day that MTT leaves S.F. - after he records the Mahler 8th, thank you.

Wunderhorn

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Re: Zinman Cycle Upcoming?
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2007, 07:45:25 AM »
Recordings are my major concern, and as it goes, at this moment, I will not by MTT on principle! I'm beginning to care more for Zander but don't want to by the singles, rather wait until it is released as a complete cycle. The thing a like about Zander is his 'atmospheric' interpretations. Clever interpreters typically don't drift to far from what is written but instead skillfully color it as if seen through their brushstrokes. Barry, do you know if Zander cycle will include the lectures, are will they only be featured in the singles?

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Zinman Cycle Upcoming?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2007, 08:35:19 AM »
You might be getting ahead of yourself. At this point, I'm not so sure that there's a committment to finish the entire cycle. There have been a lot of changes at Telarc, and they're now being distributed by Universal - the same folks who oversee DG, Decca, and Philips. They still have M2, M7, and M8 to knock out yet.

I'm afraid I don't quite share the same level of enthusiasm for Zander's Mahler as you do. Yet, I do have a feel for what you're getting at. But I think that there are basically two problems here. First off, the Philharmonia of today strikes me as being nowhere as good as it was in its glory days under Walter Legge's demanding control. Oh, they can play all the notes alright. But they strike me as being very thin in the bass end of the orchestra. You can hear a great example of this on the very, very last chord of M3 - you can hear the third and the fifth of the chord very clearly, but the "D" in the bass is almost missing. In addition, they're percussion frequently underplay very basic things, such as cymbal crashes and bass drum strokes. I know that that might not be such a great priority with you, but it does bother me. Granted, some of that may have to do with recording venues and microphone set-ups. In Legge's day, the London orchestras still had access to the outstanding Kingsway Hall. That's no longer the case, and there still isn't one oustanding concert venue in London today. Yet, I still get a sense that today's Philharmonia tries too hard to finesse everything. The old Philharmonia was a much more rough and tumble sounding group; but without the wrong notes, counting mistakes, and poor intonation that one frequently encountered on the European continent in those "post war" years.

Here's the other problem:  not unlike MTT, Zander sometimes makes things worse by being so didactic. For example, in M3, he makes a big issue about the posthorn solo coming out of nowhere; sounding in the distance. But as a result, the posthorn is practically inaudible on his recording. Unless you've already been playing the recording pretty darn loud, you have to run over and turn it waaay up. In M4, he makes a big deal about finding an appropriate sounding singer. He finds one, OK (I forget her name), but she's so bland and generic sounding that his point becomes totally lost - or pointless. Also in M4, he makes a huge deal about some of the initial tempi issues in the first movement. Yet, here's another example of losing the forest from the trees, as he doesn't think to pick up the tempo significantly at the start of the development section. Compare to this Norrington, even, where Roger at least recognizes that the development section should be as fast - or slightly faster - than the movement's initial tempo. As a result, Zander's development passage, and its concluding climax, fall flat as a pancake. That might not seem an obvious thing to you, but just compare the same several minutes of music with Norrington. There's a world of difference.

Yet, on the other hand, I think I know what you mean, as there are some very, very good moments in Zander's cycle as well. I like the fact that he makes the majority of the soft percussion in M5/1 - played under the slow funeral procession - rather audible. I like the way he balances his brass at the climax of the long brass chorale towards the end of M3/6. For the most part, I think that his "live" M9 is quite good. In M3, Zander was unhappy with the results that he was getting with the first movement, so he decided to redo the entire first movement in a single take. As a result, it comes off pretty darn good. One wonders if he simply shouldn't have tried that more often.

There's also a very false claim in regards to Zander's M6. They used to add a blurb on the front cover, claiming that this was the first recording of Mahler's first version. That's not entirely correct. In fact, it's not even remotely correct. As you may know, he includes two versions of the finale: one with the third hammerstroke, and one without. On the version that has the third hammerstroke, Zander does use the first version for the few bars that surround the third hammerstroke - both immediately before it, and immediately after it. The differences aren't huge. But, the rest of the finale on both versions is clearly taken from the revised score. To the best of my knowledge, with the possible exception of F. Charles Adler, nobody has made a recording of the entire first version of M6. All of this may not be a big deal, but I just don't like the false claim being plastered all over the front.

There's one other odd thing. In the scherzo of the M6 - towards the end of it - there's a spot where something percussive happens, that sounds almost exactly like one of the hammer blows from the finale. I actually thought it sounded kind of good, and sort of appropriate. I e-mailed Ben. Zander about it, and he assured me that there weren't any gratuitous hammerstrokes. Yet, when I pressed him further on it (very politely), describing the sound and its location as objectively as possible, he refused to acknowledge or answer. Most odd, because something's clearly there. I listened to it over and over on my best headphones, and it really sounds like wood on wood.

Anyway, I don't want to be a downer here for you, but don't get your hopes up too high. With Universal in control of Telarc now, there may be a lot of odd and major changes for them. At the very least, they're going to take their sweet time in finishing this off.

Barry
« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 08:40:37 AM by barry guerrero »

Wunderhorn

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Re: Zinman Cycle Upcoming?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2007, 09:01:32 AM »
I'm mostly concerned at finding an all in one Mahler blowout set! As I mentioned in another thread. I just bought the Bertini set and it looks like, for now at least, this will have to do. I can find nothing wrong with this set as I could with the Chailly. The only problem possible is that for people with high-quality stereos, the sound might not be quite as stellar. I was hoping Zander, or someone, would for once in a way, conduct Mahler for Mahler. It appears I must go all the way back to Bernstein. After all Jochum to Bruckner is Bernstein to Mahler. I was just listening to several clips on Amazon of his Third on DG and was tongue-tied. The way the boys chorus burst with the Bimm-Bomm is so-o-o-o disturbing. I still, after hearing several highly thought of M3s haven't found one as effective. Of the three sets of that time Solti, Tennsedt, Bernstein (DG); The most necessary is Bernstein's.

Offline Leo K

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Re: Zinman Cycle Upcoming?
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2007, 04:26:37 PM »
The Bernstein DG cycle is indeed a geat cycle, but I'm not sure his interpetations are objective, or "Mahler for Mahler", unless I'm misunderstanding you Wunderhorn.  Bernstein can be included with the "interventionist" school of Mahler conductors, which is a style I really like actually (like Barbirolli's M6th on EMI). 

The Bernstein cycle was the only one I listened to for years, until last year when I decided I wanted to expand my library and include interpetations I didn't normally gravitate too, such as the historical accounts and newer accounts like the Chailly cycle.  I needed some fresh interpetations, and I've since found some revelatory recordings, such as the F. Charles Adler M6 that Barry mentioned above.  This recording is one of the best M6's I've ever heard!!  I enjoy trying out all kinds of different approaches to Mahler's works.  I've since discovered I enjoy mono recordings the most, since I can't hear stereo on headphones (I'm deaf in one ear), so I gravitate to historical releases with their limited sound, since I can hear more in those recordings than modern stereo recordings.

Anyways, I've found it better to pick and choose instead of relying on one cycle, but hey, different strokes for different folks ;) That said, I do have the Edo de Waart Cycle and I'm planning on getting the Bertini soon too. 

Am I correct in assuming you're in search for conductors who involve themselves "least" in the interpetation?  Have you tried Bernard Haitink yet Wunderhorn?  I bet you would his really like his M9 on Phillips.  The great Derck Cooke declared this recording to be "MAHLER'S Mahler Ninth".   

You also may like Rafael Kubelik's cycle...at least try his live Das Lied von der Erde on the Audite label (with Janet Baker). 

« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 04:43:46 PM by Leo K »

Offline John Kim

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Re: Zinman Cycle Upcoming?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2007, 04:34:58 PM »
Oh yes, Haitink's analogue recording of M9th with RCO is one of the best although I wish he had gone a step or two further imbuing a little more wilderness in his interpretation. No that the orchestral playing doesn't feel passionate but the balance he's after is too neat and ordinary; everything sounds too homogeneous. His later live recordings with ECYO, LPO, and VPO were better in this regard. That's why I want to see some recording company get him to redo the symphony.

John,

Offline Leo K

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Re: Zinman Cycle Upcoming?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2007, 04:47:31 PM »
Oh yes, Haitink's analogue recording of M9th with RCO is one of the best although I wish he had gone a step or two further imbuing a little more wilderness in his interpretation. No that the orchestral playing doesn't feel passionate but the balance he's after is too neat and ordinary; everything sounds too homogeneous. His later live recordings with ECYO, LPO, and VPO were better in this regard. That's why I want to see some recording company get him to redo the symphony.

John,

Haitink is a conducter that I'm really starting to appreciate.  John, have you heard his performances from the Mahler Feest (in Amsterdam during May of 1995)?  I've recently got these and I wonder what you think.  On spring break I'm going to catch up on all my recent acquisitions.

Wunderhorn

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Re: Zinman Cycle Upcoming?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2007, 08:16:14 PM »
Dear Leo K,

It isn't so much that I mind moderate interpretation, but that I don't want to listen to too many extremes in the same interpretation. I suppose you are correct, Lenny did this often, but I also grew up listening to his DG set, so I suppose I'm more agreeable to his way of doing this.  ;)


Offline Leo K

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Re: Zinman Cycle Upcoming?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2007, 09:29:02 PM »
Dear Leo K,

It isn't so much that I mind moderate interpretation, but that I don't want to listen to too many extremes in the same interpretation. I suppose you are correct, Lenny did this often, but I also grew up listening to his DG set, so I suppose I'm more agreeable to his way of doing this.  ;)



I see what you mean.  Yeah, I first got into Mahler through Lenny's Harvard lectures, now on DVD. 

 

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