I don't know; this sounds reasonably good to me . .

[barry guerrero]

http://swissmusic.swissinfo.ch/eng/swissmusic.html?siteSect=250&sid=9286095&cKey=1214996547000&rubricId=150&storyIds=9686934,9505402,9521073,9286095,&mediumDuration=921

I don't know if this link will work because it's so long. Anyway, it's the complete 2nd movement from Zinman's Mahler 5. Yes, it gets off to a slower-than-normal start. But I thought that the last five minutes of the movement - really, the crux of the whole thing (the movement, that is) - sounded reasonably good. I like the splashy suspended cymbals (played louder than usual) just before the start of the brass chorale that's located near the end. I've heard worse - much worse.

Barry

[Dave H]

Try listening on a good system to the non-happening climax after the chorale--the suspended cymbals don't make any impact there, nor does the non-existent FFF tam-tam. You're right, though. It's certainly not terrible--merely proficient.

However, I have to disagree slightly that nothing matters until the latter part of the movement. ALL of it matters, and if you've fallen asleep in the first half, who cares about the second?

Dave H

[barry guerrero]

Yeah, but at least he doesn't slow down at the start of the second subject, as so many other conductors do (first subject, if you consider the beginning to be just an introduction). I also like his tempo relationships and/or gear changes in those last six or seven minutes of the movement. However, I certainly wouldn't try to judge the whole performance from hearing just one movement. But from what you described in your review, David, I'm not so sure that I would dislike it as much as you did. Regardless, I would certainly like to hear it for myself. I'm among the few who actually liked Boulez's VPO M5. Many people that that was a total dud. I didn't.

Barry

[Dave H]

You've always gone for the quicker performances of M5, tempo-wise, I think. By all means, you should hear Zinman, but if you think the ending of the finale is good, we're going to have a SERIOUS conversation! 

Dave H

[Leo K]

I enjoy faster performances of M5 as well...it's why I love Bertini's M5 in his EMI box so much.  I'll have to check out the Zinman sometime. 

--Todd

[barry guerrero]

Ziman's timings don't appear to be particularly fast. The scherzo is over 18 minutes, and the Adagietto is well over 10. However, one thing that you (David) and I wouldn't need a SERIOUS conversation over, are the merits of Marcus Stenz's basically unknown M5 recording. That one is pretty much top-of-the-heap for me.   . Thank you for bringing my attention to it.

[Dave H]

I take your point, Barry. I was thinking primarily of the first two movements and finale. Actually, until the ending, I enjoyed much of the finale and I like it played quickly in general. But I'm glad you liked Stenz. It really is terrific--it's the performance I pull out as often as not. That, and Levine/Philly.

Dave H

[sbugala]

I take your point, Barry. I was thinking primarily of the first two movements and finale. Actually, until the ending, I enjoyed much of the finale and I like it played quickly in general. But I'm glad you liked Stenz. It really is terrific--it's the performance I pull out as often as not. That, and Levine/Philly.

Dave H

My friend really likes the Levine/Philly performance, too.  I've got it on LP, so I may have to throw that on and give it a listen. (I stockpile LP's acquired from book fairs and used record stores. Sometimes it takes awhile to get to one.) It's a German pressing, so I expect it will probably sound better than some of the U.S. pressings I've heard on RCA.

It's off-topic, but he also recently praised the Leinsdorf/BSO M5, but the Time/Life set he acquired was missing an LP, so he only heard the last couple movements.  Leinsdorf is variable with me, but I suppose it could be good if that 1st trumpet during that time was too shaky with his tone. 

[Dave H]

Leinsdorf's Mahler recorded generally (3,5,6) was really pretty terrible, in my opinion. Almost totally flat and characterless.

Dave H

[barry guerrero]

I'm sorry, but I just find those Levine/Philly performances TOO MUCH of a good thing. Perhaps if they had been recorded in a better, more natural acoustic, I would like them more. To me, they just come across as heavy, slightly under-tempo, and generally over-bloated. I need just a tad more "lean & mean".

Barry

[Dave H]

I know you don't like the Ninth, but the Fifth? How do you get more lean and mean than that? It's one of the tightest, most rhythmically exciting versions out there, and the sonics were always pretty good (better than the Ninth and the awful half-digital Tenth, for sure!).

Dave H

[barry guerrero]

Fair enough; I'll gladly take your word for it.  I'd like to hear that in the Japanese remastering though. I believe that there was a European remastering on some budget sub-label that never made it to the U.S. also.

Barry

[sbugala]

Leinsdorf's Mahler recorded generally (3,5,6) was really pretty terrible, in my opinion. Almost totally flat and characterless.

Dave H

That doesn't surprise me. Overall, I'm not a big Leinsdorf fan, but even though my friend has locked me on to plenty of recordings I might have ignored, I'm skeptical of his endorsement of this one.  I'd worry about that opening fanfare being too wobbly on the first trumpet.  But that's just intuition, not first hand listening. 

I do keep Leinsdorf's Beethoven 7th for the most superficial reason: It's got a really cool cover I've liked since childhood!   

[Dave H]

I feel the same way about Steinberg's Beethoven Pastorale--Breughel's "The Harvest"--I saw the cover, the title of the piece, listened to the music, and I was hooked for live (I was about six or seven at the time). Also Boult's Rachmaninov Second, a performance of zero discernable merit save for the wonderful Faberge eggs on the cover!

Dave H

[John Kim]

I know you don't like the Ninth, but the Fifth? How do you get more lean and mean than that? It's one of the tightest, most rhythmically exciting versions out there, and the sonics were always pretty good (better than the Ninth and the awful half-digital Tenth, for sure!).

Dave H

I like them - the Fifth & Ninth - both!!

Levine's M5th has really good sound, better than the Ninth, and as DH said it is rhythmically tight, most exciting version I've ever heard. The playing is, without a doubt, in the top tier. I wish the Ninth had better sonics but in the Japanese remastering and the old LPs it sounds pretty good. Performance wise, it is one of the best out there with the two middle movts. unmatched in their intensity as well as the sheer virtuosity of the playing.

John,