Wagner is really getting to me.

[john haueisen]

Although Mahler has always been my favorite composer, I finished off the old year and ushered in the New Year 2009 with a return to Richard Wagner.

I watched and heard the glorious sound produced by Daniel Barenboim in his Bayreuth production of Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen.

Many here at the Mahler board are quite aware that in Mahler's day he was best known as the "best-ever" conductor of Wagner.  Listening to Barenboim's dvd set of the Ring, I was reminded of the comments made so often by those who attended Mahler's performances of Wagner's music:  "I never heard that before," or "That's just the way Wagner wanted it."
A Mahler performance of Wagner usually guaranteed a sellout crowd, even when they raised ticket prices.

Barenboim does that again with Mahler.  I heard so many quick leit motif themes and references that I had not noticed under other conductors.  He brought some themes (usually neglected) so much into the forefront that it seemed the music should never have been performed any other way.  For me it was a tantalizing taste of the way the public, more than a century ago, was dazzled by Mahler's "bringing forth" of Wagner's music.

Has anyone else ever found Wagner's music really getting to them? 
--John H

[barry guerrero]

Wagner has always got to me. I remember being mezmorized by the Advanced Band at my junior highschool when they played some sort of composite "thingy" arranged for band called, "Wagner Showcase". I would been all of 11 years old. I think it was the first time I stood up and took notice of anything that was "classical". In high school, we sometimes played a band arrangement of the Prelude & Liebestod from Tristan. I always loved playing that, and our band director conducted it superbly (my highschool had an outrageously good band program). We also did some of the big preludes from the operas. We specialized - seriously - in the Rienzi overture.

The problems with Wagner are obvious: he badly needed an editor, and his strong affiliation with German nationalism. But those problems tend to make audiences dismiss Wagner altogether. What's also obvious, is that that's a big mistake. There's much in Wagner that is beautiful, prophetic, moral; you name it. For me, the Prelude to the third act of Siegfried is a big highlight. I just wish it were longer and more developed.

I've got to go.

Barry

[Amphissa]

I just got around to Wagner in the past year. I've never been able to listen to opera on LP or CD, but I discovered that I actually like it when I can also see what's going on. So I've been enjoying opera on DVD and have actually attended the opera some during the past year (La Cenerentola at Spoleto, Madam Butterfly at the Met last month).

I chose to begin with Boulez and the Met production, because it has "traditional" staging. I'm glad that I've now seen/heard it in its entirety. There were some very fine passages, and I like his music on the whole. It was also sort of fun seeing things Tolkein cribbed for his trilogy.

But it is just too endlessly long, with too little action on stage (the old stand and sing thing) and way too much mundane filler material. I'll stick with the orchestral highlights.
 

[John Kim]

I just got around to Wagner in the past year. I've never been able to listen to opera on LP or CD, but I discovered that I actually like it when I can also see what's going on. So I've been enjoying opera on DVD and have actually attended the opera some during the past year (La Cenerentola at Spoleto, Madam Butterfly at the Met last month).

I chose to begin with Boulez and the Met production, because it has "traditional" staging. I'm glad that I've now seen/heard it in its entirety. There were some very fine passages, and I like his music on the whole. It was also sort of fun seeing things Tolkein cribbed for his trilogy.

But it is just too endlessly long, with too little action on stage (the old stand and sing thing) and way too much mundane filler material. I'll stick with the orchestral highlights.
 

IMO, even the greatest operas have much ordinary, mundane filler materials. I can hardly sit through a Wagner opera, except for Siegfried. Another exception is Berg's Wozzek which is a nonstop stunner from beginning to end. I once thought Strauss's Elektra could keep me alert for its 1 hr 40 min. duration but when I attended Seattle Opera's production last year I feel asleep a few times. Frankly, I'd rather stay home and listen to highlights of the operas or Beethoven's symphonies; I just don't have time and passion to be an opera audience. Having said this, I love Wagner's pure orchestral compositions (all from his operas). He was a master orchestrator with great skills and imaginations. No question about it at all.

John,

[john haueisen]

Amphissa said,   "I've been enjoying opera on DVD.  But it's just too endlessly long."

Bravo Amphissa!  DVD is the way to go on opera!
If you're a Wagner "nutcase," as I am, it's fun to flip back and forth in the subtitles to check what was said in the original German.
In opera, as in Mahler, the words were meant to be heard and understood.  They add immensely to the impact of the music and the, as Wagner would call it "the universal work of art."

All this nice stuff said, Amphissa and John are right about how endlessly long the Wagner Ring seems.  It's like watching impatiently as your old aunt tells a story and keeps remembering endless, seemingly unessential details that she thinks she simply MUST include.

I share your pain, but know also that for many Wagnerites, they are simply too short--they want more and more details, and a chance to savor each note of each aria.

Isn't that scary?!!!!!!!

Cheers--John H   

[klingsor]

Wagner has always gotten to me too. Ever since I came how with an Odyssey LP of Bruno Walter conducting the Tannhäuser Overture & Venusberg music....I couldn't believe this amazing music.

I find all of Wagner inspired, and have occasionally called him the greatest of all composers. But in recent times, I do find the longueurs get to me as well. A recent Tristan from the Met had lost me in the Second Act (possibly the fault of the performance). I think the most successful drama is in the Ring, and the most sublime music is in Parsifal. Parsifal is jaw-droppingly beautiful that I don't care what it's about.

[Leo K]

I really enjoyed watching Levine's Ring back in 1988 or so, on PBS when I was younger...I taped the radio broadcast as well, and would listen on camping trips.  I always wanted to get back into it, but discovered it was hard to just listen to the whole Ring on CD without a visual...and years went buy without hearing Wagner.  I'd like to change this for the new year, and finally get a DVD set...it is best to watch it and hear it at the same time, especially for a newbie like me!

My favorite music of the cycle is the sound of the Rhine, at the beginning of Das Rheingold...sublime music...love how it leads into the Rheinmaiden's voices.

--Todd

[barry guerrero]

"My favorite music of the cycle is the sound of the Rhine, at the beginning of Das Rheingold...sublime music...love how it leads into the Rheinmaiden's voices."

Absolutely brilliant! - that alone showcases Wagner's genius.

[Amphissa]

My apology. It is the Levine/Met DVD set that I have, not Boulez.
 

[john haueisen]

Yes, Amphissa, the Met production with Levine is more traditional.

The Boulez featured direction by at the time controversial Patrice Chereau.
At first, I was a bit shocked to see Wotan and the other gods in dressing gowns, yet still carrying a spear.  The production by Boulez and Chereau did however, make a very effective vehicle for showing how Wagner was commenting on the Industrial Revolution.  Man's greed--only someone who renounces love--can empower him to fashion the Rheingold (nature's resources) into something that will give him power and control over the world.

You might enjoy the Barenboim Ring.  The costuming and scenery are somewhere between the traditional (Levine/Met) and the avant garde (Boulez/Chereau), but the sound and the filming are excellent!

[Damfino]

But it is just too endlessly long, with too little action on stage (the old stand and sing thing) and way too much mundane filler material. I'll stick with the orchestral highlights.

On the whole, I agree with that statement by Amphissa. I've been into the orchestral higfhlights since I was in college in the late 70's. I have never enjoyed the complete operas as much as I thought I would after listening to the highlights for so many years.

Of complete Ring cycles, I still prefer the Boulez/Chereau cycle. Even though some thought Chereau's staging odd, what with the change in "historical period", it was really the first since Wagner's time to actually bring a lot of stuff on stage. The productions of the 60's such as Böhm's, just feature singers onstage with little or no sets or backgrounds. Chereaus's in contrast seem quite spectacular. The passage of time is also apparent in Chereau's version, though I never got usaed to seeing Siegfried in black tie. I liked the Met/Levine version as well, what with the historic setting, but just felt that Boulez/Chereau and their cast presented a more dramatic version of the operas. I have not yet heard/seen Barenboim's. Is it on DVD?

I also like the Bayreuth version of Tannhauser with Spas Wenkoff and Gwyneth Jones (just released on DVD, BTW). I saw a pretty good production of The Flying Dutchman here in Houston a few years ago. I don't know if I can ever get though all of Tristan und Isolde. Some of Wagner's operas are just too long for me. Götterdammerung contains some of Wagner's best highlights (the farewell and Journey to the Rhine, the Funeral March, Brünhilde's Immolation) but, damn, it's a long opera.

[john haueisen]

quote author=Damfino link=topic=795.msg6804#msg6804 date=1231048583]
[ I have not yet heard/seen Barenboim's. Is it on DVD?

Yes, Damfino.  It's a 7 DVD set, Bayreuther Festspiele, Barenboim, Kupfer.
Audio content:  LPCM Stereo--Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround, DTS 5.1 Surround

It's the best audio and video Ring I've ever seen.

--John H 

[john haueisen]

Just finished watching Barenboim's Siegfried.
Once again, as Mahler might observe, I am dazzled by "the master."
In the last ten minutes of Siegfried, where Brunnhilde and Siegfried are getting to know each other, Wagner manages to insert seamlessly into their dialog, a dazzling number of leit motifs--the themes or signature tunes identifying other characters, objects, or concepts presented previously.  Is it any wonder that Mahler was in awe of him?

[Amphissa]

"Is it any wonder that Mahler was in awe of him?"

Mahler and many other composers. He was so extraordinarily influential musically.

I just wish he had spent his time composing symphonies and other substantial orchestral works rather than those interminable operas. He would have had far greater impact on the listening public. Because, let's face it, only a relatively small proportion of those who love classical music like opera, and even many opera lovers do not want to sit through Wagner operas. As it is, the majority of classical music fans have probably heard only a few highlight pieces or overtures, and would only immediately recognize the Ride of the Valkyries highlight out of all the music Wagner wrote.

[john haueisen]

Of course I know that you're right, Amphissa, but it's so hard for an inveterate old Wagnerite like me to keep being faced with the fact that so few really appreciate him to the extent he deserves.
I believe it was George Bernard Shaw, who said of Wagner's Ring, that it "is the greatest work of art that Western Civilization has produced."

I guess there is my answer:  how few people are there across the globe who truly appreciate art, let alone classical music or opera?