Wagner is really getting to me.

[wagnerlover]

I've been listening to Wagner for about 20 years, to Mahler for about 10.  I occasionally pull out a score, but I'm a musical amateur and lack the analytical chops of many on this board.

Both composers "get to me."  And for similar reasons:  the ideas are huge, the insights profound, the details are super-fine, and the music is always beautiful.  If I were to go to a dessert island, both composers would have to go with me.

But let's face it, they're both long-winded.  Wagner's operas are double-long, and so are Mahler's symphonies.  I'm willing to put in the time because ultimately it's worth it. 

I'm afraid I'm about to speak a heresy here, so apoligies in advance, but here goes:  although Wagner is terribly long-winded, Mahler has a flaw that I don't see in Wagner, since Wagner continually develops his themes, moving forward, however slowly.  But Mahler has the flaw of REPETITIVENESS which I find less forgivable.  For instance in the first movmement of the Third (M3), I feel like I go on a long journey with Mahler and then when we've come through the mud into a better place, we're just back in the mud.  I haven't looked at the score, but I'd swear there are repeat signs in there.  What's up with that?  Necessary?

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts, since I've learned a lot here, and what I've learned has really enriched my appreciation of Mahler.

db

[barry guerrero]

I'll address your question - or issue - because I happen really love the first movement of Mahler 3. It is repetitive in the sense that the movement is basically a struggle between two opposing march forces: a tragic sounding, funereal march in minor; and a happy-go-lucky, quicker march in major. Of course, the "happy" march wins out in the end. But they do duke-it-out, back and forth, several times. In my opinion, what distinguishes this movement - aside from Mahler's kaleidoscopic orchestration - are two things. First, an incredible development section which leads to a climactic fantasy passage that Mahler himself dubbed, "the southern storm". Mahler also referred to it as "the rabble", and in one draft of the score he even penciled in, "let the battle begin". This passage is like hearing the battle with the King Rat from Tchaikovsky's "Nutcracker", but on steroids. Everything goes nuts, including independent, polyphonic parts for 7 or 8 percussionists (2 timpanists; snare drum  - sometimes doubled; bass drum w/ mounted cymbal; triangle - sometimes doubled; tambourine - sometimes doubled; tam-tam). Anyway, "the southern storm" tapers off into an offstage snare drum solo which, in turn, leads to the recapitulation: a reprise of the symphony's opening fanfare for unison horns (which then leads to a reprise of our two opposing march forces). The other distinguishing feature is the coda. When executed superbly at a break-note tempo, the coda can lift you right out of your seat. More than anything, Mahler's outrageous, kaleidoscopic orchestration carries the day for a full half-hour. I never get tired of it.

Both the Ben. Zander and Esa-Pekka Salonen recordings of Mahler 3 have incredibly fast codas that are just thrilling to experience. But to get them up that speed, they also had to simplify the timpani part a bit. Timpanists simply can not play 16th notes on four different pitches - and hence, four different drums - at that speed. I don't always want to hear it done that way, but it IS incredibly exciting.

[barry guerrero]

It's not that easy to detect because it's really one measure in 4/4 time (or two bars in "ala Breve" - cut time). The timpani are doubled by the horns. The way you can tell is that the horn part is really, REALLY clear on the Salonen recording. I got to wondering why (you usually can't hear them there), and realized that the timpani part had been simplified for that one bar. The same is true on the Zander. If you own the Abbado dvd, I believe that they show the timpanist going back and forth on the four drums at that spot. It's just before the bass drum strokes near the end. It's an impressive thing to watch.

Barry

[Leo K]

Well, I've just been haunted by the sounds of The Ring, lately...especially after hearing a radio documentary on the Ring cycle recently (WNYC Radio Lab).

Today I took the plunge and ordered Levine's MET DVD set...I thought this would be a great way to reawaken the magic of Wagner, and I'm also fond of this production.

 

On my two weeks off between semesters at school it's going to be a Ring retreat.

--todd

[barry guerrero]

Everyone seems to feel that on DVD, the Levine one is best for anyone wanting "traditional" staging and costumes. The Ring is incredible - so totally opposite in message from what Hitler and the third Reich had extracted from it. To some degree, it's even a feminist tale. I also think it has some comic aspects, whether intentional or otherwise. It's a long haul with some truly "snoozy" sections along the way (the entire Prologue to "Gotterdaemmerung" - oi vey!!). But taken in its totality, The Ring pays big dividends (when you're in the mood). Have fun.

Barry

[John Kim]

The Ring cycle may be the greatest opera Wagner composed. But I think in terms of organic unity and inner logic, Tristan und Isolde surpasses the Ring. It's a tremendous thrill ride from start to finish and almost works like a great symphony. Well, so does the Ring with each of the four installments working like an individual movement. But with such a long duration it's inevitable that there are many snoozy moments as Barry described. I find little of such in Tristan und Isolde, however.

John,

[barry guerrero]

Certainly Mahler loved both "Tristan" and "The Ring".   

[John Kim]

Can anyone recommend a good modern recording of Tristan und Isolde?

I have Thielemann's and Karajan's and like them both. The Thielemann is particularly remarkable in the execution of the orchestral part; it is as if he conducts a Bruckner or Mahler symphony. The architecture and inner logic of this great opera are captured as perfectly I can imagine.

Thanks.

John,

[Russell]

Can anyone recommend a good modern recording of Tristan und Isolde?

I have Thielemann's and Karajan's and like them both. The Thielemann is particularly remarkable in the execution of the orchestral part; it is as if he conducts a Bruckner or Mahler symphony. The architecture and inner logic of this great opera are captured as perfectly I can imagine.

Thanks.

John,

My all-time favorite 'Tristan' is Karl Bohm's on DG, done in 1966. (I hope that still qualifies as 'modern!)  Bohm conducts at a fever pitch throughout--almost too fast at times, actually, but it's full of intensity and passion.  Nilsson is jaw-droppingly spectacular, her gleaming high notes shooting out like laser beams.  And Windgassen is right up with her--I still get knocked out every time I hear his death scene in Act III.  This recording is still available in DG's Originals series--the sound is pretty bass-light but otherwise good, and it represents the unique acoustics of Bayreuth pretty well.

I've also got the Karajan, but, while good in its own way, I just can't stand Jon Vickers (heresy for many, I know!).  Haven't heard the Thielemann, but even though I've liked a lot of Thielemann's previous recordings, I don't really want to hear Thomas Moser as Tristan (haven't liked him much at all).  I'd still be interested in hearing it, though, if only to hear how Thielemann does it.

Russell

[John Kim]

Oh, yes, I do have the Bohm too and love it.

But Thielemann is very special. His Tristan almost sounds like a great symphony with vocal singing, like Mahler Eighth.

John,

[barry guerrero]

John,

You might want to try the Pappno one on EMI, with P. Domingo and Nina Stemme. The sound quality and orchestral execution are both outstanding. Stemme is terrific, and I like Domingo as a heldentenor more than most folks do. I don't care if his German diction isn't always the best. It also comes with a DVD disc (no picture) that has the whole thing on that one disc. It's an expensive set, but you already own the Bohm.

[DWheelerKY]

Mahler and many other composers. He was so extraordinarily influential musically.

And not just influential on composers or musically. His influence was great on writers (Mann, Hesse, etc.), politicians (Hitler, among others less evil), philosophers (Nietzsche), and culture in general. One could argue that he has been the single most influential artist - for good or ill - of the past 200 years, with the possible exception of Beethoven.

I've always preferred Wagner's acutal music, i.e.  just the music without voice, to the actual operas as such. Of the Operas, Parsifal is my favorite, and the Prelude to Parsifal is among the most transcendently beautiful music I have ever heard.

[john haueisen]

Ah, the Prelude to Parsifal.
That is indeed transcendental music.

And you are so right about the extent of Wagner's influence.
Also, without Mahler's appreciation for Wagner and what Wagner wanted in performances of his music, Mahler may never have developed into the master conductor he became (which, in turn, made him a far more effective composer).

--John Haueisen

[chalkpie]

Here is an olde threade back from the DEAD  - - - - -  bwahahahahahahahaha........!

OK. First I find it humorous folks find Wagner too long yet Mahler is their favorite composer 

I am pretty much a Wagner novice, I own a few collections, etc, but no complete operas and I've never done The Ring. Anyway, I've been spinning "The Compact Ring" with Levine/Met over the past few days and the piece that slays me is "Der Augen leuchtendes Paar" (Magic Fire Music) from Valkyrie. Wow. Stunning music. The first 30 seconds is like the final moments of M2 and M3 combined, just without the other 90 minutes preceding it 

Seriously great stuff. What a harmonic genius. This music glows like one of those neon necklaces kids get at carnivals, and yes that is a compliment. But I am confident that over the long haul the vocals will begin to grate on me if I attempt to do something like The Ring without visuals, and I don't like to park my ass in front of the tube for very long - I prefer to listen. So I dunno.

I am going to check out a few collections from my library system and see what clicks and what doesn't. They also have The Ring in separate installments. When I was an undergrad music student, we had to conduct a band arrangement of "Elsa's Procession to The Cathedral", and I have always loved that piece since, and the tune proper from Lohengrin is even better with the choir. Just brilliant stuff. And yes, I agree with whomever said that The Parsifal Prelude is one of the most gorgeous pieces ever written - it certainly gives GM a run for his money.

If anybody has any other instrumental Wagner suggestions - possibly off the beaten path (i own the popular overtures, interludes, etc) - feel free to share the wealth. Thanks.

[James Meckley]

If anybody has any other instrumental Wagner suggestions - possibly off the beaten path (i own the popular overtures, interludes, etc) - feel free to share the wealth. Thanks.

Chalkpie,

Lorin Maazel has done a thing for orchestra he calls "The Ring Without Words"—a symphonic synthesis in the manner of Leopold Stokowski—in which he presents much of the best music from Wagner's four music dramas seamlessly, in more-or-less chronological order, with no singing. It's about an hour long. He's recorded it on Telarc with the Berlin Philharmonic, and it could be just the thing to ease you into the ring without undue pain.

James