Carnegie Hall's Bernstein Mahler vs Sony's Bernstein Mahler

[Jot N. Tittle]

 :-\Other than a few differences in contents, is there any reason to get the Carnegie Hall release if one already has the Sony box?

David Hurwitz reports "Most importantly, the remastering has dramatically improved the sound of some of the most problematic recordings: the Second (NYPO version), Fifth, Eighth, and Das Lied all sound substantially more vivid and present than ever before . . . ." I may be thick between the ears, but I'm not exactly sure when the remastering was done. For the new release? The rest of his sentence and its following one, " to the point where these interpretations really do remain extremely competitive even today, when new Mahler recordings are a dime a dozen. Certainly the performances of Symphonies Nos. 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9 remain benchmark interpretations by any standard," do not clarify the matter for me.

Could someone please set me straight on this?

     . & '

[barry guerrero]

David told me on the phone that they definitely sound better than the previous issues. Whether it's worth re-buying or not is going to be an entirely personal choice. If you deal with a place that takes used product towards new product, you should get some decent credit for your current set. David thinks very highly of Bernstein's first Columbia Records Mahler cycle, so he very much welcomes these remasterings. Musically speaking, I have a preference for the earlier cycle as well, so I intend to pick one up also. I have always very much liked Berstein's LSO M8 - much, much, much, MUCH more than the hugely over-hyped Solti recording of it.

[sbugala]

I think the remastering is fine enough to justify it. But Barry's idea is almost mandatory, trade the previous one in after purchasing the new version.  It's really too bad Sony doesn't accept the trade in themselves. After all, if you could prove you've purchased it in another incarnation, you shouldn've have to pay full price for a product that should've been this good to begin with.  (Obviously, it's a pipe dream hoping for THAT one to come true.)

I may have said it in another post, but I'm almost wanting Sony to do another darn Bernstein survey of his  other Columbia stuff if it ALL can sound this good. 

[Russell]

As some of us surmised in another post, the remasterings for this new set most likely come from the DSD remasterings done for the Japanese SACD releases, which were made available in 2007.  They generally sound fabulous compared to all previous incarnations.  (The new CD set has the 'DSD' imprint on the back of the box--a telltale sign.)  If you don't have SACD playback capability, the new CD set is the next best thing.

Russell

[James Meckley]

I just received the new Bernstein/Mahler set yesterday. After reading the booklet carefully, the provenance of the remasterings still seems open to question. In a Technical Note on page 38, project head Andreas K. Meyer (of Meyer Media LLC) says he went back to the original edited master tapes, used the Sonoma DSD digital audio workstation for conversion and processing, and made the final master using Sony's SBM direct technology. He also says, "What you are hearing in this release is truer to the recording sessions than any previous release." [italics mine].

The (p) and (c) dates are both given as 2009. Didn't the Japanese SACD remasterings come out in 2008?

Could someone who owns one or more of the Japanese releases check to see if Mr. Meyer is credited on those releases and if the equipment used is the same?

My initial reaction to this set is that there is indeed much more presence, detail, and clarity than before, but that in some passages in some of the symphonies, that detail and clarity has been achieved at the expense of some harshness of tone, though that may simply be what the original recordings sound like. I want to listen much more before making any final judgements as to audio quality.


James Meckley

[John Kim]

My initial reaction to this set is that there is indeed much more presence, detail, and clarity than before, but that in some passages in some of the symphonies, that detail and clarity has been achieved at the expense of some harshness of tone, though that may simply be what the original recordings sound like. I want to listen much more before making any final judgements as to audio quality.


James Meckley

James,

This is exactly how I felt upon hearing the Bernstein Century releases of Mahler Ninth. While the clarity and details improved the sound quality had lost some of its integrity. The dynamic range was compromised too. I am saying this because I have all three versions - the original CBS, the Royal Edition, and the Century. I must say, of all the three versions the CBS sounds most natural and authentic.

I also heard some of the Japanese SACDs - M3rd, M6th and M9th. This M9th in particular sounded incredible with none of the sonics glitches present and yet sounding "juicy and smooth" for lack of words.

I bet the latest box set IS NOT based on the Japanese SACD remastering though.

John,

[Russell]

I just received the new Bernstein/Mahler set yesterday. After reading the booklet carefully, the provenance of the remasterings still seems open to question. In a Technical Note on page 38, project head Andreas K. Meyer (of Meyer Media LLC) says he went back to the original edited master tapes, used the Sonoma DSD digital audio workstation for conversion and processing, and made the final master using Sony's SBM direct technology. He also says, "What you are hearing in this release is truer to the recording sessions than any previous release." [italics mine].

The (p) and (c) dates are both given as 2009. Didn't the Japanese SACD remasterings come out in 2008?

Could someone who owns one or more of the Japanese releases check to see if Mr. Meyer is credited on those releases and if the equipment used is the same?

My initial reaction to this set is that there is indeed much more presence, detail, and clarity than before, but that in some passages in some of the symphonies, that detail and clarity has been achieved at the expense of some harshness of tone, though that may simply be what the original recordings sound like. I want to listen much more before making any final judgements as to audio quality.


James Meckley

I've got all of the Japanese SACDs (except for DLVDE) and on the back of each of them, Andreas K. Meyer is credited as the "reissue producer & DSD mastering engineer", so I think this pretty much confirms that the remasterings for the new CD box set are derived from the DSD remasters created for the Japanese SACD releases.

I think the (p) and (c) date of 2009 applies to the CD releases and not the SACDs, which came out in late 2007, I believe.

As for the sound quality, yes, in general it is improved immensely. no doubt due to the use of DSD and more careful remastering.  As you've noted, there is some harshness in some of the recordings, most notably the later ones done in the mid/late 60's, but remember that that was the time when tubed recording equipment was being phased out in favor of solid state, with the result that most recordings from that period had that harsh characteristic.  Also, Columbia wasn't exactly known at the time for producing great sounding recordings--they were always behind RCA and Decca (way behind!) in that department back then.  Still, I think these new Lenny Mahler remasterings are likely the best these legendary recordings will ever sound, and I'm happy to have them.

Russell

[John Kim]

If somebody sends me a copy of the M9th, I can easily tell you all if the Carnegie Hall set is based on the Japanese remastering or not  .

John,

[James Meckley]

Russell – Thanks for your thoughtful and informative reply. I now feel comfortable in believing that these CDs resulted from the same project that produced the Japanese SACDs.

John – If you'll contact me privately, I'll arrange for you to hear the CD version of M9 from this box.

Since Carnegie Hall apparently sponsored this CD release in some way, and their name is mentioned on the box cover as "presenting" the Bernstein/Mahler symphonies, it's ironic that none of the recordings inside the box were actually made in Carnegie Hall. Apparently intrusive subway noise ruled it out as a serious recording venue during the Bernstein era (and beyond).

James

[John Kim]

James,

I just sent you a message 

Thanks.

John,

[John Kim]

I just received the new Bernstein/Mahler set yesterday. After reading the booklet carefully, the provenance of the remasterings still seems open to question. In a Technical Note on page 38, project head Andreas K. Meyer (of Meyer Media LLC) says he went back to the original edited master tapes, used the Sonoma DSD digital audio workstation for conversion and processing, and made the final master using Sony's SBM direct technology. He also says, "What you are hearing in this release is truer to the recording sessions than any previous release." [italics mine].

The (p) and (c) dates are both given as 2009. Didn't the Japanese SACD remasterings come out in 2008?

Could someone who owns one or more of the Japanese releases check to see if Mr. Meyer is credited on those releases and if the equipment used is the same?

My initial reaction to this set is that there is indeed much more presence, detail, and clarity than before, but that in some passages in some of the symphonies, that detail and clarity has been achieved at the expense of some harshness of tone, though that may simply be what the original recordings sound like. I want to listen much more before making any final judgements as to audio quality.


James Meckley

Indeed, looking at the back of the CD cover of the Japanese SACD I read

DSD Mastering Engineer: Andreas K. Meyer

So, I guess the Carnegie Hall reissue is based on the Japanese remastering.

John,

[barry guerrero]

I just listened to the DSD remastering of the 8th. It's an amazing M8, and it sounds very good now. However, it really bugs me that there are no extra tracks for Part II. There's just one track for each of the two parts. It's also a bummer that the Janet Baker/Israel Phil. "Kindertotenlieder" got dropped (it's with M8 on the Benstein Century edition).

Barry

[Russell]

I just listened to the DSD remastering of the 8th. It's an amazing M8, and it sounds very good now. However, it really bugs me that there are no extra tracks for Part II. There's just one track for each of the two parts. It's also a bummer that the Janet Baker/Israel Phil. "Kindertotenlieder" got dropped (it's with M8 on the Benstein Century edition).

Barry

At least that 'Kindertotenlieder' is on one of the Japanese SACDs, along with the M10 Adagio (replicating the original LP).  (I assume the M10 Adagio is in the new CD set?)

Russell

[James Meckley]

Russell,

Yes, the M10 Adagio is coupled with M1 in the new set.

James

[Jules]

It's also a bummer that the Janet Baker/Israel Phil. "Kindertotenlieder" got dropped (it's with M8 on the Benstein Century edition).

Barry

What a marvellous performance, both of them are so inspired! And Des Knaben Wunderhorn has not been included, either...
Has anyone listened to the comments from people that played under Mahler's conducting?