Indeed, Schwarz/Seattle S.O. M8 is very good!

[barry guerrero]

Just as I predicted, the Schwarz/Seatlle S.O. M8 is very naturally recorded in a very sympathetic and flattering acoustic (Benaroya Hall). Balances between brass; woodwinds; chorus, and vocal soloists - all that's very good. It's a very solid performance from start to finish. I have only a few minor squabbles. 1). the organ could be a tad bigger for my taste; 2). Vinson Cole - he's the weakest link - has just become soooo affected in this crucial tenor role; 3). Some of the women, such as Jane Eaglan, are just a tiny tad forceful and "he-man" like for my taste. But the pluses throughout the performance more than compensate for the these minor annoyances. The endings to both parts are very exciting. In that regard, this Schwarz performance reminds me a lot of the underrated Neemi Jarvi one on BIS. Schwarz's conducting of the ending to Part II might prove to be a bit controversial.

He's very fast with the end of the choral part - the part where they keep singing "zieht uns hinan" in overlapping ways, leading to the very final "hinan". But then Schwarz takes the final bars quite slowly, with plenty of tam-tam during those unison cymbals/tam-tam strokes. It's really very well done. I like this one a lot.

Barry

[John Kim]

He's very fast with the end of the choral part - the part where they keep singing "zieht uns hinan" in overlapping ways, leading to the very final "hinan". But then Schwarz takes the final bars quite slowly, with plenty of tam-tam during those unison cymbals/tam-tam strokes. It's really very well done. I like this one a lot.

Barry

This is strange....on the night I attended the final pure orchestral passage in Part II. was so fast that it all ended within a matter of seconds . Maybe the recording originates from another concert on another night. Anyway, thanks for your encouraging report. I will get a copy for myself soon.

John,

[barry guerrero]

Well, the ending to Part II  isn't as slow as either Bertini or Boulez make it, but it's not at all rushed either. There's sufficient time to let the sound of the deep tam-tam die away on each stroke. There are other things that make me happy once I bothered to purchase this too.

The packaging, for one, is quite good. The art work is attractive, and the names of ALL of the performers are listed. Wisely, they don't try to copy the program notes - people can get that information anywhere, including on-line. They also give plenty of extra tracks in both parts, which Sony couldn't be bothered to do with their latest Bernstein "DSD" remastering. For a self-produced item, this is a pretty classy effort.

By the way, tuba player Chris Olka sounds terrific.

[sperlsco]

Thanks for the review.  I can't wait for mine to arrive.  I just finished listening to the Neumann M8 to get me in the mood.  I don't know how I missed that one the first few times I listened to it, but I "discovered" its brilliance about a year ago! 

[barry guerrero]

Yeah, the Neumann M8 is very "naturally" recorded too. It has a couple of Slavonika Wobble-Skaya type singers in it though.   

[John Kim]

I got my order in place. Thankfully, they didn't charge WA state tax nor S&H. It's just $17.99 as posted on the web.

John,

[Russell]

Thanks for the info, Barry and John!  I just ordered my copy, too.  (Kind of a bizarre way to order a CD, but at least there was no tax or shipping, which was great.)

Russell

[Leo K]

Thanks Barry for the review...I just ordered a copy and I'm really looking forward to hearing a new M8!


--Todd

 

[sperlsco]

I've listened to the Schwarz M8 once through.  While there is much to enjoy in this performance, I can't say that I am impressed overall.  Part I is conducted in a rather brisk and straight-forward manner, without much pushing and pulling.  This may be a positive in the eyes (or ears) of some, but it leaves me less impressed with both the end of the fugue and the very end of Part I.  I prefer a little bit of tension and release in these two parts.  Schwarz does a little bit more pushing and pulling in Part II, but not always successfully.  The first Dr. Marianus section and the solo singing for the first 2 of the three penitent women are taken very slowly.  Unfortunately, most of the solo singers do not sing well enough to make it work at such a tempo (more on them later).  Barry mentioned the controversial ending -- and indeed it is rather strange.  At the return of the Veni Creator theme from the first movement (the section between the first and second of the final five tam-tam smashes) Schwarz really hits the gas in what I assume is an effort to repeat the Veni tempo from Part 1.  Okay, it makes the repeat of the theme a little more obvious, but at the expense of the feel for the music -- it sounds darn strange.  Many others speed up a little bit at this section, and do it to better results.  After the second tam-tam smash, Schwarz slows to a more normal speed (although it sounds slower than it really is, because of the tempo of the previous section).  From the second tam-tam smash to the end he does a nice job -- and there is adequate tam-tam, cymbals, and bass drum rolls.  In fact the bass drum plays a nice crescendo into the 3rd and 5th tam tam smashes. 

Now for the singing -- BLECH    Most of the singers are subpar-to-just adequate.  Vinson Cole in particular is ill suited to the Doctor Marianus part.  His first solo is all but cringe-worthy.  His Blicket Auf is slightly better, but not really even decent.  Jane Eaglen is the best of the sopranos, but she really is much better on the Tennstedt DVD (at least I think that is where I've heard her in the Gretchen part).  She is MUCH better than the Gretchens in Nagano or Davis -- two of the worst Gretchens on CD.  One of the contraltos is rather cringe inducing, and even is noticeably flat in the Chorus Mysticus at the end.  I would also say that the Bass (Harlod Wilson) is a weak link -- if there weren't so many others.  Oh yeah, Soprano 1 makes herself stand out a few bars earlier than I am used to hearing in the Chorus Mysticus. 

Okay, that is a lot of bad.  But really, much of it is quite good.  The orchestra plays beautifully, and there is great detail from the wind instruments.  I also like many of Schwarz' choice of tempi and handling of transitions.  However, I probably would not recommend this -- accept except to collectors. 

[John Kim]

Barry and Scott,

Like I said several times, Schwarz has always made interesting gear changes when playing Mahler; in virtually all of his Mahler concerts I attended I was able to find spots where he applied subtle but noticeable tempo changes. This was all the more more surprising because normally I would have not expected the shifts at those spots. I think, however, they all more or less worked out nicely adding flexibility and fresh changes in his performances.

I look forward to hearing the disc myself (it may arrive today .

John,

[John Kim]

The endings to both parts are very exciting. In that regard, this Schwarz performance reminds me a lot of the underrated Neemi Jarvi one on BIS. Schwarz's conducting of the ending to Part II might prove to be a bit controversial.

He's very fast with the end of the choral part - the part where they keep singing "zieht uns hinan" in overlapping ways, leading to the very final "hinan". But then Schwarz takes the final bars quite slowly, with plenty of tam-tam during those unison cymbals/tam-tam strokes. It's really very well done. I like this one a lot.

Barry

My copy arrived yesterday and I gave a complete listen this morning.

The sound is indeed flattering with lots of reverberation from the hall but I found the dynamic range somewhat limited in loud passages such as the ending to Part I. But otherwise it is pretty good.

I paid a close attention to the controversial ending of Part II. I now recall this was actually how Schwarz had the music end; my memory was part wrong because I thought only the pure orchestral part was fast. What makes this performance so unusual and in a way refreshing is, as Barry mentioned, the few bars right before the orchestra takes it over. Normally, I'd have expected the tempo to broaden at this spot but Schwarz went against it. Was he rushing to finish it in 80 min.  (total running time is pretty close to 80 min. on this disc)? I really don't think so but I am not sure.

You know, I rather like this approach after all. Like I said, in every Mahler concert he did there was a spot or two like this one that made the music sound fresh rather than disjointed. And I think in the case of M8 this was it. It will take time to get used to it and it seasoned but I like it quite a lot.

The performance otherwise is sound and solid with no nonsense approach.

I highly recommend it.

John,

[sperlsco]

Barry mentioned the controversial ending -- and indeed it is rather strange.  At the return of the Veni Creator theme from the first movement (the section between the first and second of the final five tam-tam smashes) Schwarz really hits the gas in what I assume is an effort to repeat the Veni tempo from Part 1.  Okay, it makes the repeat of the theme a little more obvious, but at the expense of the feel for the music -- it sounds darn strange.  Many others speed up a little bit at this section, and do it to better results.  After the second tam-tam smash, Schwarz slows to a more normal speed (although it sounds slower than it really is, because of the tempo of the previous section).  From the second tam-tam smash to the end he does a nice job -- and there is adequate tam-tam, cymbals, and bass drum rolls.  In fact the bass drum plays a nice crescendo into the 3rd and 5th tam tam smashes. 

I listened to a couple of my SACD versions of M8 this morning.  Kubelick handles the above passage -- the return of the Veni Creator theme -- in a similar manner to Schwarz.  Unlike Shwarz, he continues the fast tempi until the symphony's end, along with some tiny, little, barely audible tam-tam splats -- a complete disaster in my book. 

[barry guerrero]

I know that Vinson Cole has seen better days as a singer. He sounds very "affected" here. But frankly, I find him no more offensive than Gambil on the Nagano M8. I'm not sure why Gambil bothers me so much, but he just does. Anyway, I got to run. I really like the tempo relationships, as well as the "natural" sound quality.

I'm back. Anyway, Kubelik may have a total non-happening ending, but his Mahler 8 - both DG & Audite - are the best sung ones of any.

Barry

[sperlsco]

I know that Vinson Cole has seen better days as a singer. He sounds very "affected" here. But frankly, I find him no more offensive than Gambil on the Nagano M8. I'm not sure why Gambil bothers me so much, but he just does. Anyway, I got to run. I really like the tempo relations,i as well as the "natural" sound quality.

I'm back. Anyway, Kubelik may have a total non-happening ending, but his Mahler 8 - both DG & Audite - are the best sung ones of any.

Barry

Gambill was quite awful in the live/radio performance that predated the commercial recording by a few months.  However, I think that he is pretty good in in the commercial release.  He is pushed right up to his limits (esp. in his first Part II solo), and certainly does not make it sound effortless, but he does fine to my ears.  In fact, I actually find him to be quite good in the Blicket Auf section -- very soulful!.  I don't expect that we have identical likes/dislikes when it comes to singers.  For example, I know that you are quite put off by the tenor in Sinopoli (IIRC Keith Lewis?), but he sounds decent to my ears. 

I agree that Kubelick has some of the best solo singing in his live version (I haven't listened to the studio one in ages, but expect that it is similarly well sung), particularly in the two main parts -- Dr. Marianus and Gretchen .  Personally, though, I think Solti's singing is unrivaled.  I have yet to hear anyone even approach Lucia Popp as Gretchen (pure, effortless, and soaring), Kollo is my favorite of all Mahlerian tenors, and all of the others are outstanding. 

[barry guerrero]

I don't think that Keith Lewis is too awful on the Sinopoli "DLvdE". But I love that one mostly for the Dresden Staatskapelle. But as for the Solti M8, "arrrrrrrrrrrrrggggghhhhhhhhh"    -  way over sung in my book.