Finally got Chailly boxset!

[barry guerrero]

I can understand your dismissal of symphonies 2 and 7, as I feel that those are the two weakest in his cycle. But what is it about that percussion in the M6/3 that bothers you? If it's the cowbells, the'yre on-stage in the slow moment; as opposed to being offstage in the two outer movements. The cowbells second entrance in the andante movement is marked fortissimo. They need to be shaken vigorously in order cut through 8 or 9 unison horns - also playing fortissimo - along with the unison strings. Otherwise, you won't hear them at all. Beyond that, there's very little percussion in the slow movement, other than the timpani.

I remember your comment about Chailly's Mahler reminding you of Varese. Trust me, Chailly isn't exaggerating what Mahler wrote for the percussion. In some sense, if you don't like what you're hearing, in terms of the textures of the music, you're actually bucking against what Mahler wrote. Believe me, he took percussion very seriously.  Your objections regarding tempi, on the other hand, are an entirely different matter. You may be happier with the Berini cycle, which is still my favorite complete one.

Barry

[Wunderhorn]

I simply disagree. In the Chailly's 3rd movement, you cannot even listen to the climax, as it sounds as though there is a bunch of moneys banging on hollow coconuts, it is repulsive; Also the strings are too thin to support the heavy sound of the precussion, in this recording. Cowbells are not supposed to sound like bongo drums Mr. Guerrero! I am quite aware that Mahler took percussion seriously. He took much heat from the critics because of it! I also dislike the finale, it needs more rythmic definition like Abbado's with Berlin, very strong rythms. After all, they define so much of the beauty of the work.

[barry guerrero]

Wunderhorn,

Your welcome to disagree with me. But you're objectively wrong to say that Chailly's cowbells sound like bongos. Why? Because they're not bongos, they're cowbells - that's what cowbells sound like. If, what you're protesting, is that they sound too far forward too you; well, you're entitled to that opinion, but it's not one that I necessarily share. Assuming that you mean the passage leading up to the movement's climactic passage; well, it's mostly just the horns that are doing much of anything at that moment. For the most part, the harmony is simply ascending step wise. Once the harmony reaches a certain plateau (I don't remember what key - I'd have to look it up), the cowbells cut out; and that's pretty much where the strings take over. I don't really see where anything important in the strings is being covered over. If that were a genuine concern, Mahler would not have called for on-stage cowbells, played fortissimo. Look - I'm just being the messenger here! These are musical facts, based what's on the written page. If you think that they're too far forward sounding, fair enough. But please, don't make it a personal issue - I'm just a messenger of what's on the page.

Now, if you're connecting the dots, and assuming that because I'm defending the cowbell balances, I'm therefore presenting the entire performance as being the best - I'm not! Didn't I say that I actually prefer Gielen's M6 instead (well, I did somewhere)? I'm also sorry that you're not liking the Chailly cycle in general. I still like it more than the Gielen cycle - an issue that also has to do with cost, and the exclusion of Gielen's Mahler/Cooke 10th. I still endorse the Bertini cycle as being the best one overall. I also think that both of Bernstein's are very good; the Sony one being slightly better. Tennstedt shouldn't be entirely discounted either, although the sound quality isn't always the best.

There's one other issue that comes to mind. If you're possibly thinking that small, "tinkly" sounding cowbells represent authentic cowbell sound; well, it doesn't! If you go over to the Alps and the Austrian highlands, cows wear fairly large bells with a somewhat lower pitched sound. Because they're in groups of large numbers, you can hear that sound from miles away. The Vienna Phil. has very similar sounding cowbells. Anyway, I'm sure that that was the sound Chailly was after; although, the cowbells belong to the orchestra, not him. But he might be presenting them a bit too far forward; true. My belief is that the cowbell sound is supposed to be very, very disturbing at that point. I don't believe that it's meant to be pretty or pastoral at all - not even in the slightest. Now, that - I'll fully admit - is an opinion and not a fact.

"I also dislike the finale, it needs more rythmic definition like Abbado's with Berlin, very strong rythms".

Absolutely no argument with your reasoning there. Although, I would urge you to take a second listen to the last ten minutes of Chailly's finale. The final allegro "charge" is done superbly well, I feel - every bit as good as it is on the Abbado. Also, if you check out the very, very, VERY end of the symphony, I think you'll be impressed with Chailly's sense of rhythm there. He takes that final A-minor outburst very slow, and VERY rhythmic in the timpani. Before you throw out the baby with the bathwater, do yourself a favor, and just listen to those final ten minutes again. If you don't find something to like within those ten minutes, I'll eat my hat.

Barry

[Wunderhorn]

Wunderhorn,

Your welcome to disagree with me. But you're objectively wrong to say that Chailly's cowbells sound like bongos. Why? Because they're not bongos, they're cowbells - that's what cowbells sound like. If, what you're protesting, is that they sound too far forward too you;

I've heard several versions of the sixth, a non have sounded like that! It is a quite simple fact that people can like the way percussion sounds in one recording as opposed to another, ESPESIACLLY WHEN IT COMES TO MAHLER! That said, it is obvious that Chailly's cowbells, are not my thing, or I wouldn't have likened them to bongo drum, now would I? 

[barry guerrero]

"ESPESIACLLY WHEN IT COMES TO MAHLER!"

Why would Mahler be exclusively different in that regard, or any regard?

[Wunderhorn]

He used much percussion. When I hear a recording, I can sense differences not only in the mannerisms of the conductor, but in the actual sound of the instruments, from one recording to the next. It is hard to explain the different personalities of an instrument. They change even though both are bassoons or clarinet or whatever. This becomes quite noticeable when it is a timpani, tam-tam, cowbells, etc. etc. It might have something to do partially with the way it was recorded.

[barry guerrero]

OK, but what you're saying would apply to all composers; not just Mahler. Look, instead of bantering back and forth - my fault as much or more than yours - just give the recording a rest, and then give it a second chance down the road. More than anything, I would urge you to listen to the last ten minutes of the finale. I say that because I feel that these final ten minutes are the prime focus of Chailly's entire performance. I think it all comes together then, and I think you'll find your sharp, incisive rhythms at the very end of the symphony. And if you find that it's all too little, too late; fair enough. But you already own the thing - give it that much of a chance.

Barry

[Wunderhorn]

But you already own the thing - give it that much of a chance.

You're right. I plan on paying much attention to it before I sell it. I don't want to regret making the wrong move.

[barry guerrero]

That's the spirit. I'm not trying to talk you into loving the thing, and nor am I trying to be patronizing. But I do think that Chailly's M6 has some very good things going for it, and I think it's worth investigating what those things are. I've always said that Chailly's Mahler is very strong in the woodwinds and percussion. Strings and brass are somewhat less of a priority with him. It will always remain debateable the extent to which one section should be balanced against the other three. My belief is that all four sections of the orchestra should be very evenly balanced in Mahler. To that end, I actually think that the Jansons/Concertgebouw M6 is a tad better. But just for a bit of fun, listen carefully to Chailly's excellent woodwind detail, next time around. Personally, I don't really care for his scherzo very much (and he normally does scherzo movements really well), but that has more to do with tempi and tempo relationships.

And by the way, just compare the very ending of the symphony against Abbado's. I think you'll find Chailly more shocking and/ or disturbing - very slow and very rhythmic. I'm repeating myself.

[barry guerrero]

"mooooooooo"   .    .    .  note the size of this guy's bell

[barry guerrero]

Here's the ubiquitous 100 cm. Wuhan tam-tam; used also in the Concertgebouw. The mallet lieing below it is actually for tubular chimes. The gong mallet would be much larger. It's recorded spectacularly well on the Chailly M6, I feel.

[Wunderhorn]

But they don't need to be so narrowly shaped around the opening. Basic Acoustic's. We will never know the original cowbells Mahler used?

[Wunderhorn]

Here's the ubiquitous 100 cm. Wuhan tam-tam; used also in the Concertgebouw. The mallet lieing below it is actually for tubular chimes. The gong mallet would be much larger. It's recorded spectacularly well on the Chailly M6, I feel.

The more density and weight that can be added to the sound world of Mahler, the more Mahlerian.

[barry guerrero]

Here's the type of three-sided gong mallet that the Concertgebouw uses, only theirs is bigger. It actually takes a pretty good size gong, struck by a good size mallet, to cut through a full fortissmo chord.




.    .     .    hey, I'm just saying, enjoy it for what it's worth.

[Wunderhorn]

I listened to the M5. It is a very good M5 as in 'by the book', which always works well. But like you were saying. The strings and horns are lesser than the woodwind and percussion. With the Fifth Chailly must use thick strings at least sometimes, as the work demands it! All 1,3,4,5,8,9 are very good. I believe the crystal clear sound in the Chailly set has upset me a little. Some melodies are supposed to make general statements, but when you here it through Chailly, it becomes so clear that it is distracting from the absolute to be more independent.