Author Topic: Karajan and Mahler  (Read 24726 times)

Offline MichaelO

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2007, 01:14:16 PM »
Hi Dennis:

>>he helped many Jewish members of the BPO, as well as Jewish composers such as Hindemith and Pfitzner<<

I don't believe these two composers were Jewish.  If I am remembering correctly Pfitzner, a rather old man at the time, was a tad anitsemetic.

I too like K's live M9.  His best Mahler IMHO.


Michael

« Last Edit: March 24, 2007, 01:44:41 PM by MichaelO »

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2007, 03:31:52 PM »
Pfitzner was very much a German nationalist. He and Alma were great buddies, which drove Mahler crazy.

B.

Wunderhorn

  • Guest
Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2007, 11:12:34 PM »
Pfitzner was very much a German nationalist. He and Alma were great buddies, which drove Mahler crazy.

B.

Pfitzner was once asked by the Nazi's to compose incidental music for 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' to replace Mendelssohn's music, and Pfitzner replied that he couldn't right anything better; By doing this he lost much respect with the Nazis.

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2007, 07:30:20 AM »
By "German nationaist", I wasn't saying nazi. I just want to make that clear.

Ivor

  • Guest
Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2007, 09:21:44 PM »
   And 'anti'Jewish' is a more correct phrase than'antisemitic'. Arabs are also Semitic.

   NALOPKT





      Ivor

DennisW

  • Guest
Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2007, 04:22:36 AM »
Sorry for the mistake about Pfitzner. I may have been thinking of someone else whose name I can't recall now. It appears I was wrong about Hindemith too. I always assumed he was Jewish since he and his musoic were so despised by the Nazis and he was forced to emigrate. Apparently, however, he only had some Jewish family members (his wife, I think?), but wasn't actually Jewish himself.

And please, let's not start on the "Arabs are Semites too" nonsense. While Arabic and Hebrew are both classified by linguists as "Semitic" languages (as are Maltese, Akkadian, Aramaic, Amharic, and Phoenician, among others), the term "anti-semite" was coined in the late 1870s and has always been synonymous with anti-Judaism, not anti-Arabism (or anti-Akkadianism, Anti-Phoenicianism, etc.!). The German word "Antisemitismus" was first used by the German nationalist agitator William Marr in an 1879 book, the same year in which he founded the first "German League of Anti-Semites". Needless to say, Marr and his ilk used the term as a proud badge of honor to refer to themselves, and preferred the term Anti-Semite to Anti-Jewish because it was supposedly more "scientific" sounding (remember this was the era of "Social Dawinism" and the rise of all sorts of pseudo-scientifc racial theories. Phrenology anyone?). The term "Anti-Semite" is also often used in contradistinction to "Anti-Jewish" to distinguish those whose animus toward Jews is "race-based" from those who animus is religiously motivated. For the former, for example, a Jew is always a Jew, even if he converts, while for the latter, a Jew may "redeem" himself by converting. Thus the reason that converts were not spared the hatred of Nazi "racial" Anti-Semites.

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2007, 08:49:18 AM »
I've wonder about that. It made absolutely no sense to me that the term "anti-semite" should be understood as being both anti-jewish AND anti-arab. This is especially true when so many people seem to take one side or the other in the ongoing middle east struggle. If the nazis began using the term themselves, then it should stick in discussing nazi racial policies. I realize that this is off-topic, but all of this didn't happen so terribly long after Mahler's death. If he had lived a long life, he would have encountered this tragic era himself.

Barry

DennisW

  • Guest
Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2007, 02:04:46 PM »
He would have indeed. And his formal conversion wouldn't have saved him from the Nazis. In fact, if I recall correctly, I believe one of the biographies I read mentioned one of Mahler's sisters as having died in a Nazi concentration camp.

Ivor

  • Guest
Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2007, 03:14:44 PM »
   Interesting,DennisW.  Thanks.

   Karajan also recorded Mendelssohn,Schoenberg and Offenbach. And I'd be surprised if he didn't do Dukas,too.

   Wonder what Mahler would have made of it.



   I.

DennisW

  • Guest
Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2007, 01:40:08 PM »
Karajan's second wife was also part-Jewish, which makes his flirtation with Nazism all the more odd and hard to pin down, i.e. did he join out of genuine belief, or was it just a cynical career move to prevent losing out on plum musical appointments? His marriage to her was probably the main reason he eventually fell out of favour with the Nazis (though Hitler not liking his conducting was another reason!), but as far as I know he never actually left the party before the end of the war.

Wunderhorn

  • Guest
Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2007, 08:31:08 AM »
A little off subject, but 'people change with the times': Many older people in the South of the USA were bigots once upon a way, but won't talk about it today. Karajan himself changed I'm sure. Karajan's M5 and M6 have died down in popularity, but were gems in their day. I'm particularly in love with his M6. Though I just bought them on DG Originals, it seems to me they could have enhanced the sound a bit; there is something, blah blah blah, about it, good bass though.....

On the Karajan M5, its orchestra isn't as personal nor as mood-swingy as in Bernstein's. The most beautiful thing about Karajan '73 M5, is that it was so very good for its day. His M6 is immortal though!

Offline barry guerrero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3928
Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2007, 02:55:17 PM »
While possessing a lot of small and beautiful detail, I still find Karajan's M6 to be a case of missing the forest for the trees. There's a disconnect between just how fast the outer movements are, and how slow the two inner movements are. While the end of his first movement is very fast and exciting, the start of the scherzo doesn't seem to relate - tempo wise -to either the end of the first movement, or even the beginning of the symphony which Karajan also takes a tad fast. Worse yet, the numerous and long trio sections are waaaaaay too slow, albeit pretty sounding (but quite dull, to me). And while it's quite beautiful, Karajan's slow movement certainly doesn't observe Mahler's Andante Moderato marking (Mahler was always closer to 14 minutes). However, Karajan certainly isn't alone in disregarding Mahler's tempo description. Mahler also never once mentions the word langsam (slow) either. And while Karajan's finale is fast and exciting, the major climaxes aren't particularly overwhelming. I don't think it's a bad M6, but I just don't think that it gels very well from start to finish. It may be a candidate for one that works better when switched to andante/scherzo order. For this type of a conducting job, I think that the recent Eschenbach/Philly one gels better. It's also one that works better played back A/S.

While the recent Abbado/BPO M6 doesn't possess nearly as much small detail - or not nearly as well illuminated, shall we say - I do think that it gels better as a large conception. Oddly enough, this one works smashingly well when switched to S/A order, as the start of the scherzo matches the end of the first movement perfectly. The flow of the work is better - well, to me anyway. And thus, the "narrative" hangs together better. Between these two, I'll take the Abbado, but will listen to it S/A.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 05:12:45 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Leo K

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1368
  • You're the best Angie
Re: Karajan and Mahler
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2007, 04:50:24 PM »
For all it's tempo problems, I still love Karajan's M6 because this recording was my 'first time' with Mahler's 6th.  I have always reached for the Karajan first, but since I've heard Horenstein's 2 accounts that has changed.  I resonate with Horenstein's more 'distanced' interpetation, especially the performance on the new BBC Legends release.  Horenstein's interpetation can be compared to Kurusawa's camara technique in his film Ran, where the camara is placed far from the action...there are hardly any close ups at all...and he uses a zoom lens to get close rather than move the camara closer.  This is what Horenstein sounds like to me.

Back to Karajan's account, I also love the 'well illuminated' sound and the numerous beatiful details as Barry mentioned. 

I agree Abbado is the more convincing interpetation in comparison to Karajan, even in it's original A/S order  :)




 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk