Reviews of M9, Alan Gilbert, Royal Stockholm PO, BIS on SACD (MERGED)

[John Kim]

Here is Tony Duggan's review of the Gilbert M9th which is pretty negative for the most part :

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Nov09/Mahler9_BISSACD1710.htm

John,

[barry guerrero]

Whatever. You're all nuts. 

[John Kim]

Whatever. You're all nuts. 

Hey,  me?? I didn't write the review After all, I gave 8/9 rating

John,

[barry guerrero]

Nobody is saying that it's the greatest Mahler 9th ever to have happen. But it's a very good, single disc recording of the work, captured in very decent sound (at least to my ears). What is there to fuss so much over?

B.

[Leo K]

I have returned to the Gilbert M9 today, and finally I am succumbing to it's overall tone and impact...I'm starting to really like it, even the sound quality is better than my first impression.  I guess I just needed more time with it.

Highlights:

The 1st and 3rd climaxes in I.

The whole Rondo, especially the slower reflective section.

The climax and ending of the Adagio.

 

--Todd

[barry guerrero]

I've recently listened through both the Nott and Gilbert Mahler 9 recordings. The Nott isn't bad - it really isn't. It's just that it doesn't grab me any in particular way - it's sort of just there. On the other hand, the Gilbert one is - heaven forbid - so much more exciting in the first movement. And the Rondo-Burlesque is every bit as razor sharp as the R-B on the Bernstein/Concertgebouw M9. To me, Gilbert's Mahler 9 is just more distinctive than the Nott - it's a really well proportioned, single disc version of the work, captured in pretty darn good sound.

For me, the only real "interpretive" mistake that Gilbert makes, is that he simply takes the first waltz passage in the second movement too quickly. He should save room for the last waltz variant instead.

[John Kim]

On the other hand, the Gilbert one is - heaven forbid - so much more exciting in the first movement.

That's precisely the problem I have with the Gilbert. Just "exciting" w/o much depth.

John,

[Nathaniel]

I've now heard the commercial Nott. I promised my impression, so here it is. I think the live concert (the one I've mentioned before) is stronger, but this commercial release is still excellent. Nott is more intense, subtler than Gilbert. The thing is, Gilbert falls a little into the obvious superficial traps, and that's why he's at his best in the Adagio (the same was in the live concert in LA, which was much more impressive throughout -- maybe because the orchestra was better). It's interesting to compare the two (Nott and Gilbert) because both recordings are with smaller, somewhat provincial orchestras, so the comparison makes sense. I think Nott is more restrained, less obvious. Nott creates more drama with less noise. But I'm sure there will be many more Mahler 9th in the coming two years and in superb sound. Would be good to hear Honeck's or Ivan Fischer's.

On the other hand, the Gilbert one is - heaven forbid - so much more exciting in the first movement.

That's precisely the problem I have with the Gilbert. Just "exciting" w/o much depth.

John,

[Leo K]

I've now heard the commercial Nott. I promised my impression, so here it is. I think the live concert (the one I've mentioned before) is stronger, but this commercial release is still excellent. Nott is more intense, subtler than Gilbert. The thing is, Gilbert falls a little into the obvious superficial traps, and that's why he's at his best in the Adagio (the same was in the live concert in LA, which was much more impressive throughout -- maybe because the orchestra was better). It's interesting to compare the two (Nott and Gilbert) because both recordings are with smaller, somewhat provincial orchestras, so the comparison makes sense. I think Nott is more restrained, less obvious. Nott creates more drama with less noise. But I'm sure there will be many more Mahler 9th in the coming two years and in superb sound. Would be good to hear Honeck's or Ivan Fischer's.

These are some excellent thoughts...I agree it is fascinating to compare these two releases.  I spent my last two days off comparing the Nott and Gilbert and feel both performances compliment each other for the reasons you described.  Also, the sound quality is pristine for both and the details of each are rewarding to listen and ponder.  It is also fascinating to compare the various Japanese orchestras on Exton and Fontec.

The Gilbert is definitely more exciting in the first movement, and the Nott is intense in a subtle manner...both work for me...and it is nice to be spoiled by all these choices.  Also, Nott and Gilbert hold their own against the Rattle/BPO (my top choice) and many reviewers say they surpass the Rattle, and this is impressive indeed.  

--Todd

[barry guerrero]

The problem with too much depth in the first movement is that it doesn't leave room for the rest of the piece. The remaining three movement simply aren't anywhere as good. You may as well play it as a single movement, unfinished symphony. Seriously, THAT's the problem.

[Nathaniel]

You're probably right. Although -- compared with the 1st, 4th, 6th, 7th and Das Lied von der Erde (maybe even the 5th) -- the 9th possibly isn't as innovative, original and as full of ideas at every twist and turn. Although a lot of people prefer the 9th, maybe precisely because it's less "revolutionary"?? Of course that's only my view, but all new 9's are far less exciting to me. There is just not much there to screw up, or -- even more importantly -- to dig in and find new treasures. With every really good 1st or 6th or 7th I still do get excited every time. With Das Lied von der Erde for example there is so much to screw up that even with all the available recordings and broadcasts, the really profound ones can be counted with one hand.

The problem with too much depth in the first movement is that it doesn't leave room for the rest of the piece. The remaining three movement simply aren't anywhere as good. You may as well play it as a single movement, unfinished symphony. Seriously, THAT's the problem.

[Leo K]

You're probably right. Although -- compared with the 1st, 4th, 6th, 7th and Das Lied von der Erde (maybe even the 5th) -- the 9th possibly isn't as innovative, original and as full of ideas at every twist and turn. Although a lot of people prefer the 9th, maybe precisely because it's less "revolutionary"?? Of course that's only my view, but all new 9's are far less exciting to me. There is just not much there to screw up, or -- even more importantly -- to dig in and find new treasures. With every really good 1st or 6th or 7th I still do get excited every time. With Das Lied von der Erde for example there is so much to screw up that even with all the available recordings and broadcasts, the really profound ones can be counted with one hand.

It's the opposite for me...with the exception of the M6 and DLVDE I'm only excited about the M9 these days...I enough have great performances of the other works!  I can only afford to collect one symphony and that's the M9.  I also feel the M9 has more to offer and has more ideas than Mahler's other completed works, except for the M3, and DLvDE.  

--Todd

[barry guerrero]

yes, but the first movement is so great that it can easily overshadow the rest of it. Also, there are plenty of recordings where the performers simply could not keep up the same level of intensity from start to finish. In a way, I think the Ninth is a very draining work.

Anyway, to take this in yet another obtuse direction, I think the Eji Oue M9 (Exton or Canyon) has more character and interest to it than the Nott. That's just me.

[Leo K]

yes, but the first movement is so great that it can easily overshadow the rest of it. Also, there are plenty of recordings where the performers simply could not keep up the same level of intensity from start to finish. In a way, I think the Ninth is a very draining work.

Anyway, to take this in yet another obtuse direction, I think the Eji Oue M9 (Exton or Canyon) has more character and interest to it than the Nott. That's just me.

Yeah, the first movement of the 9 often overshadows the rest, I agree there.  This element keeps me interested to see who can overcome this potential problem.  Sometimes this happens to the M3 as well.  Mahler seems to really challange music directors with some of his works...the M3, M7, M8 and M9 seem to really be difficult in this regard.

My favorite M9's are those that are the exception.  Here I site the usual suspects...Lenny and Karajan...Lets face it, you really just need these guys if you only want a few recordings.  BUT Bertini, MTT, Rattle and Haitink are incredible for me personally...and there are others that I forget at the moment.  But I'm a completist geek over the M9.

As an aside I will say I could probably live with JUST the Bertini box from EMI if I had to sell everything god forbid...but more on that another time.

I do have one quibble regarding Mahler's plan for his 9.  I have to admit to having a problem with the second movement...okay there I said it.  Whew...I feel better now.  It takes a special performance to grab me with the second movement...most recently the Rattle and now the Gilbert.  I also love what Bertini does in the second movement.

Oue is definitely more characterful than the Nott, I can't argue with you there.  Oue even makes that second movement a kind of emotional purging nearly equal in wieght to the first movement.  Oue makes the other movements very memorable without getting too into hysterics or dragging tempos...he somehow keeps the whole thing together and interesting even though the second movement almost moves into late Klemp territory..almost too much!  

My love for Nott is something I can't put into words yet, except to say it sounds autumnal and in a certain way sounds like late Brahms chamber music.  

--Todd

[BeethovensQuill]

I just got the Gilbert M9 today but havent listened to it yet, i just wanted to respond to the comment about the 1st movement overshadowing the rest, im 34 now, when i 1st bought my 1st M9 recording i was 23 and it was the 1st Karajan recording from the 70's, i then went on to get the Karajan live 82, the 2nd Abbado recording, and now the Nott and Gilbert.  I did get the 1st rattle recording but i just cant stand Rattle in Mahler, Sibelius yes but not Mahler.  When 1st gettinginto the symphony the 1st movement did indeed for me completely overshadow the other 3 movements but now after getting into the Nott and being completely absorbed in it, the other 3 movements are now for me just as important and as great.