Author Topic: Help w M6 Finale  (Read 16462 times)

Offline gabyb

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Help w M6 Finale
« on: September 06, 2009, 06:33:30 PM »
Hi all,

I'm having a hard time w the last movement of M6, and was hoping someone can give me a road map or schema of what's going on.  I feel I know and undersatnd the first 3 movements pretty well, but the 4th eludes me, especially trying to figure out a) its relation to the rest of the symphony, b) its basic structure.  Thanks,

GB

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Help w M6 Finale
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2009, 12:45:57 AM »
Well that's the point: the 6th is very much a finale driven symphony. Thus, the finale is almost a symphony on to itself. My suggestion is that you listen to just the finale numerous times. There's an awful lot of music and noise in there.

Before we talk about structure, there are a couple of things that are almost like leitmotifs. One is a loud A-major chord that makes a diminuendo (gets softer), and then changes to A-minor. That signature sound is often times accompanied by the "fate" rhythm in the timpani:  tum   .   . tum   .     .    ta-tum, tum, tum. That "fate" rhythm actually comes from the first movement march, and gets used numerous times throughout the finale as well.

As for the structure, there are several different ways that you could look at it. First of all, there's a slow introductory section that begins it, and a slow funeeral dirge that ends the work (followed by just an A-minor chord at the very end, accompanied by the "fate" rhythm). Hence, while there's plenty of fast music in the finale, it starts and ends with slow music. Even the very, VERY beginning of the finale is sort of a leitmotif: the weird, swirling music in the strings that sounds like the theme music to the old TV show "Fantasy Island" ("the plane, the plane!!). That's a very important leitmotif because it pops up at THE most critical moment in the entire finale. More on that later.

Anyway, one way to try to digest the finale, is to listen to everything that happens up until the first hammerstroke; take a break; listen to the music between the two hammerstrokes ("the wild ride of headless horsemen across the scorched battlefields of Europe" - my description); take another break, and then listen to everything that happens after the second hammerstroke.

The most critical music in the finale, is the music that happens after the second hammerstroke. Everything turns hysterical at the second hammerstroke, then the music gets sucked up into a vortex, which is capped off with a solo gong stroke (doubled with the bass drum, actually). Then we come back to the very beginning of the movement, yet again:  the swirling strings and spacey melody that sounds like "Fantasy Island" (the plane, the plane!!!). With me so far?   .    .  Then the cowbells tinkle away, and the deep bells - which are representative of church bells - chime away also. Then we come to the final Allegro (fast) "charge" section. This is the nuttiest section in the whole movement, and it's where Mahler's contrapuntal skills reach their zenith. The allegro charge section leads to a passage that I refer to as, "the false victory parade". It's a parade ground theme belted out in the horns (often times underplayed), accompanied by the "fate" motif in the kettledrums. Then we come to slow section, in major, that sounds like the dawning of new, brighter, more promising day. This is where the entire symphony sounds as though it wants to resolve on A-major, and then just stop.

Instead, we get a smash on the tam-tam (doubled with the bass drum), and come back to that introductory, "Fantasy Island" music once again. This segues to the spot where the third hammerstroke is sometimes reinstated: yet another sounding of the A-major to A-minor chord, accompanied by the fate rhythm in the timpani. This dissolves into the funereal dirge for the trombones and tuba. The end.

I'm not sure how a college music professor would analyze this movement. I don't feel that any traditional explanation is actually descriptive enough. Personally, I think of it as a two-part movement. I think of everything that leads up to the tam-tam smash (large gong) after the second hammerstroke as being sort of a Part I, and everything from there to the end being the Part II.

Here's what happens from start to finish:

Opening "Fantasy Island" music (the plane, then plane!); long introductory passage that is similar to the funereal dirge at the end of the movement; first Allegro (fast), "charge" passage; some music that's reminiscent of the "Alma" theme from the first movement; a hard, allegro push up to the first cowbell episode; first cowbell episode (slow and soft); weird, transitional music that gets us to the first hammerstroke; first hammerstroke - lots of mayhem; "bridge" music between the two hammerstrokes (the wild rid of the headless horsemen across the scorched battle plains); second hammerstroke - more mayhem: swirling vortex music - solo tam-tam smash (that isn't solo, it's doubled with the bass drum); introductory, "Fantasy Island" music, dissolving into second cowbell episode (with church bells joining in further down); final, allegro "charge" passage'; more weird, vortex like music; false victory parade theme, accompanied by the fate motif in the timpani (but not played loudly); A-major music that sounds like the promise of new, brighter day; tam-tam smash (again, doubled with the bass drum); introductory music all over again (the plane, the plane!); A-major to A-minor meltdown, accompanied by a loud sounding of the "fate" motif in the timpani (this is where the third hammerstroke originally was, and sometimes gets reinstated); long, funereal dirge in the low brass, dissolving down to almost nothing (cellos); silence; final A-minor outburst (no A-major); pizzicatto pluck in the strings - game over.

Well, it's not formal, but I don't think that traditional, formal analysis tells you damn thing. I really don't. Hope this helps.

Think of WWI. Think of newsreels of troops charging across the scorched earth of the western front, heading straight into barbed wire and machine gun bullets. That works for me. It's certainly not exclusively about Mahler's own personal insecurities or problems.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 12:05:10 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Martin Bernhard

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Re: Help w M6 Finale
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2009, 01:28:36 PM »
It's good to start with the structural scheme, because you'll be lost in such a vast composition without it. along with it comes the superimposed emotional curve that makes the movement the decision battle of the tragic saga.
So, what you obviously first get aware of, is the scheme of alternating slow-brooding and fast structured allegro parts with a big variety of thematic material and moods. Each of the slow parts begins with the same significant music that sounds like when you dive and cross the surface of the water but also of the subconscious. So you have the alternation of SLOW(1) - FAST(1) - SLOW(2) - FAST(2) - SLOW(3) - FAST(3) - SLOW(4). This can be recognized as a slow introduction (a very huge one, like in Brahms 1st Finale) recurring 4 times. A recurring slow introduction happens prominently in Beethoven's sonate pathétique for piano, and in Bruckner's 5th symphony, 1st movt. The material of the slow parts is in a protocoic way amorphous, not yet organized to thematic structures. Perhaps with exception of the slow Choral that comes soon in horns and woodwinds and which plays a role in the fast parts later on, and the "fate" motif (A-major - a minor) that occurs at every corner of the movement again. Now what are the fast parts for? They can be recognized as (1) a sonata exposition with four subjects, (2) a sonata development that unleashes a strict logic of self-destruction and (3) a part where after a little while happens a complete, variated recapitulation, where themes themself show already that their necks were broken in the development. In the central development section you will hear the famous two hammerblows, in between there is the very central "battle" section, wher I hear the decision is made.
What decision? Aside from the mentioned various thematic and structural conflicts you may be able to analyze and experience, you encounter an alternation of dark and bright forces, so-to-say, positive and negative fields or energies. this goes through all of the sections and makes for very intense, glowing episode (that remind of the cowbell episode in the first movement and the heights of the slow movement) and destructive, abrasing epsidodes. From the bright heights, there is always a downfall. In the end, darkness holds the victory.


Einmal muß sein der Beginn:
 
gesetzt unter die Wurzel des Schattens.
Punkteinsamkeit:
die findet schwerlich statt.

Offline gabyb

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Re: Help w M6 Finale
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2009, 03:52:23 PM »
Thank you both, that's very helpful.  Now I have some serious listening to do, and will report back. 

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Help w M6 Finale
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2009, 12:00:26 AM »
Another very simple way of looking at it is this: think of the Golden Gate Bridge - or any other suspension bridge with just two towers. The hammerstrokes are the towers, and music before and after the towers are reasonably equal in length. But I think of it more as a two part movement, with everything up to the tam-tam smash AFTER the second hammerstroke being Part I.

john haueisen

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Re: Help w M6 Finale
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2009, 12:27:33 AM »
Wow, Gabyb!
This is what I like best about the gustavmahlerboard.  You asked a simple (simple?--Sure!) question, and it elicited brillliant replies.  I think I'll print out Barry's comments and keep them with my M6 collection--it's absolutely delightful to follow Barry's thoughts.

Then Martin Bernard presented a more structural analysis.
May I offer my personal, rather emotional response?    It's rather general, as emotions can be articulated in words only by approximations.  For me, M6 is a human being's overview of Life and the world.  Each of us finds things to love (the so-called Alma theme) that make us cling to life.  We also experience  threats and setbacks and other things that intrude upon our enjoyment of life.  We struggle against these (the battle themes), and sometimes think we are on the verge of grasping "what life is all about."  Yet we are reminded (the hammerblows) of the fleeting nature of life--that no matter how much we like life, it is inexorably moving toward its end for us.  

For me at least, that final movement is a struggling to cling to the beauty of life, while being forced to confront the approaching end of life.  It's as if we're climbing the tall mountain of knowledge towards Truth, and as we get near the top,  hearing the cowbells from elsewhere on the mountain, we confront the fact (in the hammer blows) that we don't have controll of things, no matter how desperately we wish we did.

OK.  That's all totally personal.  But for me that's the beauty of Mahler.  We don't have to see the technical form or techniques to appreciate his music.  We can just hear it, and let our imagination or "soul" fill in the blanks.  My "take" on M6 will seem absurd to many, but perhaps to someone it will hit home.

John Haueisen
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 02:09:24 PM by john haueisen »

Offline sperlsco

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Re: Help w M6 Finale
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2009, 04:32:12 PM »
I think I picked this up from DH's book, but the music after the second hammerstroke is really the same as much of the music played from the first to second hammerstroke -- only in reverse. 

I picture this as being that our hero is dazed and confused from the second hammerstroke, so then his mind replays the past events in reverse as a he gathers steam for one last assualt up the mountaintop.  Of course, in the end he doesn't have the energy to make it (or he makes it, but he used up all of his energy getting there and suffers the consequences). 

BTW -- Here's a link to Dave's book, which is a wonderful read for non-musicians like me. 

http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphonies-Owners-Manual-CD/dp/1574670999
Scott

Offline gabyb

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Re: Help w M6 Finale
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2009, 07:47:39 PM »
Yeah I may just get DH's book, there seems to be a lot of helpful description and analysis.

john haueisen

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Re: Help w M6 Finale
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2009, 11:03:00 PM »
I'd like to second very heartily, Sperlsco's recommendation of David Hurwitz's book, The Mahler Symphonies: an Owner's Manual.
In it, Dave provides a detailed description of each symphony.  I find little about which to disagree wiith him, and whenever I need a refresher before listening to a Mahler symphony, I reread what Dave has written and it always gives me new ideas of what to remember to look for.

Another nice feature is that the sections on each symphony tell the reader what instruments the symphony was scored for.  Thus, you'll see a listing of how many of each instrument, including the more unusual items such as glockenspiel, sleigh bells, and tam-tam.

By the way, the book comes with a CD inside the back cover--a very nice idea, for it lets Dave point you directly to where in the music you'll find just what he was describing in the book.
Really--I've read many Mahler books, but Dave's is the one to which I return most often.
--John Haueisen
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 11:06:51 PM by john haueisen »

Offline mike bosworth

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Re: Schelle
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2009, 02:15:29 AM »

Another nice feature [of the Hurwitz book] is that the sections on each symphony tell the reader what instruments the symphony was scored for.  Thus, you'll see a listing of how many of each instrument, including the more unusual items such as glockenspiel, sleigh bells, and tam-tam.


I believe that it is a common erroneous assumption to state that Mahler meant 'sleigh bells' when he included Schelle ('little bells') in the instrumentation of his Fourth symphony.  My feeling is that if anything Mahler was thinking more along the lines of "Narrenschelle" (the little bells worn on a jester's cap).  Several commentators including Adorno have proposed this interpretation.

Mike Bosworth
Hanoi

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Help w M6 Finale
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2009, 06:09:23 AM »
Sorry; I don't really buy Adorno's thought there on small bells for M4 (there are no sleigh bells in the 6th). But that's neither here nor there. Anyway, just for the amusement of you fans of the Hurwitz Mahler book, David and I first met clear back in early '80s at a classical music shop in Menlo Park - on the left coast - while simultaneously looking over a new release of Mahler symphonies 5 & 6, on vinyl, with Lorin Maazel leading the Vienna Philharmonic (CD's weren't in circulation yet). Sony hadn't purchased CBS yet, so it was on the CBS Masterworks label (CBS had dropped the Columbia label for classical product by that point). He bought one, and then we went over to his apartment to listen to it. We later went out for Chinese food. We both thought that the 6th was pretty good (it's a lot like the Boulez, but with a somewhat slower andante movement), but less so the 5th. Sometime later, David actually worked a stint at that particular store, which is no longer there. This was all before he moved back to the east coast. We were very close friends in those days, and even did a fair amount of performing together in local community orchestras. We're still good friends, but lead very different lives with plenty of responsibilities - just like everyone else.

My descriptions for the finale of Mahler 6 are entirely my own, and aren't really influenced by anyone else. As I hinted, I pretty much reject any traditional ways of analyzing it. I had to listen to the finale numerous times before fully grasping it. Since then, I've played in concert on three separate occasions; both as a tuba player, and as a percussionist.

Barry
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 06:13:26 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline stillivor

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Re: Help w M6 Finale
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2009, 07:27:40 PM »
I've given my take on the finale in the least favourite thread, and haven't yet got how to transfer quotes.  :(

There's also a question there about Horenstein's M6s.


   Ivor

Offline Roland Flessner

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Re: Help w M6 Finale
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2009, 04:23:59 AM »
I hope that the other participants' comments have been helpful, and I'll let them speak for themselves. However, I will add this:

M6 has been a recent (as well as long-term) obsession, and I've concentrated almost exclusively on the finale lately. I have about 30 recordings, and while I haven't listened to them all recently, I'll mention a few standouts.

Obviously the form of the finale is complex, and I find that a few conductors maintain momentum and provide a narrative sweep that to me makes the musical argument more cogent. I was most impressed with Bernstein/NY, Inbal, Bertini, Kubelik/DG, Gielen and Thomas Sanderling. Honorable mention goes to Zander/Philharmonia.

The sound for Bernstein is a bit dated, but his performance just carried me from start to finish. By comparison, momentum flags in his VPO recording. I got a similar sense of the tight symphonic argument from Kubelik, with slightly less intensity compensated with greater refinement for Inbal, Bertini and Gielen. Sanderling's orchestra is a bit rough but his conducting is convincing. Zander leads at a lower voltage, but with an appealing clarity.

Although you didn't ask for recommendations or comparisons of recordings, I mention these because at least for me, whether the finale makes sense depends on how well a conductor argues its case. I'm aware that I could be stirring up a hornet's nest with all our varying favorites, but you might find that the finale comes into better focus with a particularly charismatic interpretation.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Help w M6 Finale
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2009, 05:04:13 AM »
In my view, that's a very sensible list, and your point is very well argued. I don't think you'll find a hornet's nest at all. Thanks for your offering.

Barry

Offline Leo K

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Re: Help w M6 Finale
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2009, 10:36:23 AM »
I agree with Barry...excellant list there.

I have to second the Bertini in the EMI box...a wonderful M6 where I actually enjoy the whole ride, not just half of the performance.  Like I said in another thread, it's rare when I enjoy the finale, but when it clicks...it really hits like a fantastic whirlwind!


--Todd

 

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