Author Topic: David Zinman "Going against Fate" M6 DVD documentary  (Read 18118 times)

Offline Zoltan

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Re: David Zinman "Going against Fate" M6 DVD documentary
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2009, 10:55:12 AM »
I don't think it's so much about Mahler "predicting" anything in a specific sense, as it is simply embodying and expressing through art a general foreboding about a coming civilizational catastrophe.

My trouble with this kind of explanation is: somebody is always running around declaring the apocalypse. It's like the broken-down clock that is accurate twice a day. I can imagine that Mahler was perhaps describing what he saw happening around him in fin-de-siecle Vienna and extrapolate that to create intense drama in his music, nonetheless I have a hard time accepting that he saw the coming of a "civilizational catastrophe"; it's rather us trying to make sense of it all looking back.

I have noted it and will try to read more about the Essen performance, and the "thrice homeless" is indeed a political comment quite unlike Mahler, though I wonder on that as well, since the source is Alma as far as I know.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: David Zinman "Going against Fate" M6 DVD documentary
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2009, 05:53:48 PM »
Again, while what you say is true at face value, Zoltan, you can not explain away Mahler 6 by simply saying that it's exclusively about Mahler's own insecurities. I would rather embrace the cathartic, Greek tragedy explanation. Also, in my opinion, you can not compare those times to today. It's true that we're ALWAYS living in times of uncertainty. But at that time, the world had entered its first, truly global economic period. Yet, the political systems were still tied to outdated and inflexible leadership from the aristocracy and monarchies. Furthermore, Europe was experiencing an arms buildup of huge proportions. Europe's answer to solving geo/political issues had ALWAYS been armed conflict. Even within the 19th century, two conflicts were huge in setting the stage for Germany's unification, and thus, ascension as a world power: the Franco-Prussian War, and the Austro-Prussian War. As I mentioned before, plenty of artists and intellectuals - probably anybody who took the time to add one and one together - saw that the old ways of dealing with big issues in Europe was headed for a dead end street. Probably few Europeans today would deny this. That's one big reason why today, Europeans are so hesitant to throw themselves into geo/political conflicts in the Middle East and Central Asia. In fact, they've become so "gun shy", that they are nearly incapable of dealing with geo/political problems in the Balkans - an ancient hot-spot of trouble for the rest of Europe.

Today, in spite of having to eradicate terrorist organizations, we have nothing to compare with that sort of situation. The prospect of the world blowing itself apart in nuclear conflict was pretty much stopped cold (no pun intended) during the Cuban Missile Crises, as well as Reagan's strategy out of out-spending the Soviet empire (if not stopped, at least greatly delayed). Can you imagine how people felt at the world exposition in Paris in 1900, when they saw great quantities of huge guns on display from Krupp, Skoda, Vickers, and whomever the main French gun makers might have been? Uneasy, to say the least.

Also, to my mind, the "Gay Vienna" explanation (Fin de siecle Vienna) isn't entirely adequate either. By this point, from a purely military standpoint, Austria-Hungary was already in the basket of a unified Germany. The Kaiser was already meddling heavily in Hapsburg politics, particularly in matters dealing with their Eastern neighbors (and Balkans). I do not see Mahler as someone who spent lots of time and energy paying attention to Arthur Schnitzler, Karl Krauss, Hugo von Hoffmansthal, Gustav Klimt, Kolo Moser, Josef Hoffmann, or any of the other key members of a self conscious, indigenous art nouveau moment, quaintly called "Jugenstil". Certainly he would have been aware of them, if not also on friendly terms. But he was also too self absorbed in pushing his own career, his own agenda, and his own artistic ideals, which - in my opinion - were far more universal in their scope and aim. Mahler was already thinking well beyond Vienna.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 06:50:37 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline Zoltan

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Re: David Zinman "Going against Fate" M6 DVD documentary
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2009, 10:52:29 AM »
Again, while what you say is true at face value, Zoltan, you can not explain away Mahler 6 by simply saying that it's exclusively about Mahler's own insecurities.

If what I wrote made that impression I wasn't choosing my words carefully enough! That explanation is *definitely* the one I think is close to the truth.

Barry, what you describe of the political situation around the turn of the century in Europe is right as far as my historical knowledge goes. What I would be interested in (but what needs research) is how people really felt said in their words. By that I don't only mean a few opinions but a more general overview (if there are any). Due to TV today, one can hear more about the world than 100 years ago, which is why I have trouble accepting, that a common man (someone outside of politics) would be able to grasp everything happening around him (from newspapers alone?), to see the whole picture. In hindsight we're able to look back and say: "aha, that was it (just like you described Europeans)". But would they be able to see a conflict which has never been seen before on European soil?

Which is why, coming back to Mahler, I see him not a messanger of times to come, but a describer of a "Greek tragedy" as you said (much less specific about the what?, more about the how?)

Edit: corrected a spelling mistake
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 01:07:21 PM by Zoltan »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: David Zinman "Going against Fate" M6 DVD documentary
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2009, 04:48:41 PM »
"but I describer of a "Greek tragedy" as you said (much less specific about the what?, more about the how?)"

I can buy that. It certainly makes far more sense to me than the three-strikes-you're-out, boogeman of fate theory.

B.

Offline mahlerei

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Re: David Zinman "Going against Fate" M6 DVD documentary
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2009, 11:46:58 AM »
Hmm, I don't find these conductor 'commentaries' very useful and usually avoid them like the plague. I prefer the music to 'speak for itself' rather than be coerced into all sorts of extra-musical speculation about what it 'means'. Music, in and of itself, 'means' nothing, and any meaning it does accrue is through our own personal response to it. And, by definition, such reactions are entirely personal, not universal. Which is why I can't get worked up about the hammer blows or any other musical devices.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: David Zinman "Going against Fate" M6 DVD documentary
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2009, 05:40:59 AM »
For the most part, I agree with what you say. On the other hand, the question will ALWAYS persist as to WHY Mahler composed what he did compose, WHEN he composed it. This was suppoed to have been the happiest period in his life. Furthermore, Mahler's behavoir in Essen was a complete puzzle to everyone around him. Clearly, Mahler himself was not being very objective.

While Mahler dropped the concept of written programs, he still went along with the idea that his works - or any big works from his period - had some kind of hidden program. But he also gave his listeners the freedom to at least somewhat determine the hidden programs for themselves.

Boulez says that Mahler symphonies are both epic and narrative in quality. That may be more precise than saying that they're programmatic, I suppose.

Offline mahlerei

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Re: David Zinman "Going against Fate" M6 DVD documentary
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2009, 01:54:53 PM »
Barry

That's my point exactly; Mahler's erratic and emotional behaviour in Essen seems to contradict what was going on elsewhere in his life, so any attempt to set the music in some kind of narrative aspic is always going to be fraught with problems. Few would deny that M6 is a work of considerable turmoil, but that is communicated withour necessarily being aware of Mahler's personal circumstances at the time. In that sense the medium really is the message, and anything else is ephemeral.

The same sort of issues arise with Shostakovich, where commentators have spent so much time trying to find 'hidden meanings' in the symphonies. Again, the impact of these works - certainly those without a programme or sung text - isn't diminished by not not knowing the circumstances surrounding their composition. The Fifth, for example, and its 'reply to just criticism' has been hugely overplayed, I believe, and trying to decode these works is simply a waste of time.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 05:21:51 PM by mahlerei »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: David Zinman "Going against Fate" M6 DVD documentary
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2009, 07:56:32 AM »
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on the Shostakovich part. What Volkov said just seems terribly obvious to me: that from the 4th on, the Shostakovich symphonies are tombstones for the Russian people. The 4th is so obviously exposing the horrors and desolation of trying to live under Stalin. At the same time, it's also a tribute to a Mahler. In comparison to the 4th, the 5th is - well, to me, anyway - quite obviously just exactly what eveyone has been saying about it: "A Soviet artist's reply to fair and just criticism" - not!!  I don't think that the story behind S5 has been overplayed at all. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on this part of the debate.

 

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