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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: barry guerrero on July 10, 2010, 12:24:17 AM
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I hate to start yet another Mahler 9 thread, but here goes. I got a chance to hear the Salonen/Philharmonia M9, and it's really quite good for a fast performance. It's hard to believe that this is the Philharmonia Orch., because they sound much more alert and intense than usually do in Mahler. There's even a lot of bass in the recording, and the Philharmonia generally has very weak double basses. I usually can't hear their tuba player worth a darn either, but he's all over this recording. Good stuff! There's one thing that's kind of weird, and that's regarding the big tam-tam smash at the (anti)climax of the first movement. Instead of the giving it a fortissimo whack, they do a gong roll instead. It sounds kind of weird because at the point where they stop rolling, it sounds just like somebody turned off a tap of running water. Worse: it sounds like when your TV is on a station that has nothing but white noise, and then you suddenly change the channel. It's kind of funny, actually. But the rest is pretty good.
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I have this recording. It took listening a few times through to decide it was a keeper. Overall the timings are similar to Mund/Kyoto, a less-known version that I admire, but they are different. In Salonen's first movement, I noticed the tam-tam effect you mentioned. Overall I found that movement to be more direct'/angular' than I'm accustomed to: the abrupt ending to that roll exemplifies that. Also, in the flute and horn duet, the horn is mighty bold, but (I know the markings) is that 'correct'? I've decided that, for that first movement, it is less a performance of resignation but maybe more of detached retrospect. I think the 30 extra seconds in the Mund/KSO performance of that first movement afford more time for some nostalgia. I'm listening to Giulini/CSO at the moment, and it certainly has more emotional ebb and flow - and takes 20% longer to do it! Similarly, Salonen's second movement has less rustic sarcasm than I find in other performances. The third movement is suitably buoyant, though I think it could use a tad more schizophrenia. Like the first movement, the Adagio is more direct than some and doesn't linger over details that I appreciate in others (e.g. Bertini, Giulini, etc.) In summary, I thought it really well played and with a general directness that I think I should revisit.
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I hate to start yet another Mahler 9 thread, but here goes. I got a chance to hear the Salonen/Philharmonia M9, and it's really quite good for a fast performance. It's hard to believe that this is the Philharmonia Orch., because they sound much more alert and intense than usually do in Mahler. There's even a lot of bass in the recording, and the Philharmonia generally has very weak double basses. I usually can't hear their tuba player worth a darn either, but he's all over this recording. Good stuff! There's one thing that's kind of weird, and that's regarding the big tam-tam smash at the (anti)climax of the first movement. Instead of the giving it a fortissimo whack, they do a gong roll instead. It sounds kind of weird because at the point where they stop rolling, it sounds just like somebody turned off a tap of running water. Worse: it sounds like when your TV is on a station that has nothing but white noise, and then you suddenly change the channel. It's kind of funny, actually. But the rest is pretty good.
That sounds very intriging...I have to hear this gong effect.
The Royal Philharmonic sounds fantastic on Gatti's M4 recording too, with heavy bass, characterful windwoods and brass.
--Todd
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Philharmonia's strings did not seem to me up to their tasks, especially during the Finale. I still prefer Salonen's Mahler recorded in L. A.
L.
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I listened to this performance throughout the weekend. I think that it is a good version of a "fast" M9. I agree that the tam-tam spot mentioned by Barry sounds a bit strange. It sounds like they gave a Paiste tam-tam a good whack and let it ring on for quite a while, but then stopped it in a VERY noticeable fashion. Strange indeed!
The one thing that bothers me throughout the entire performance is that the cymbals barely have any presence. That aspect really dulls the impact of certain climaxes. Also, the horns play very well but are overly-forward in certain sections. Perhaps they are closely miked. As Barry said, it was nice to hear some low-end to this orchestra -- Bass, Trombones, and Tuba all sound very good.
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Scott,
I don't have the recording yet, but I think the way you described the performance fits other Philharmonia/M9 recordings as well - Sinopoli, Zander, Sanderling. The strange sounding tam tam, the loud horns, weak cymbal, etc.
John,
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Speaking of the Phiharmonia tam tam, I think this has always been the way it was played in ALL of Philharmonia/M9th recordings. Listen to Klemperer, Sanderling, and Zander, and you will find out what I mean.
I will go out to get the Salonen today ;D :D.
John,
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Yep, it's like that on all of those. It seems most exaggerated on this one: as though somebody stuck a microphone up to a running tap of water (or white noise on your TV), and then suddenly turned it off. It's kind of funny.
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I am told that the magazine CLASSICA, in May 2010, gave the following ranking in a blind test about the 9° symphony/Mahler :
1. Sinopoli/Philharmonia (1993 DG)
2. Nott/Bamberg (2009 Tudor)
3. Haitink/Concertgebouw (1969 Philips)
4. Karajan/Berlin (1979/80 DG)
5. Bernstein/Berlin (live 1979 DG)
6. Sanderling/Berliner SO (1979 Berlin Classics)
7. Boulez/Chicago (1995 DG)
8. Abbado/Vienna (live 1987 DG)
It's interesting that they included Abbado's earlier version with VPO but not the BPO version. As for Karajan, they picked the analogue edition over the more famous digital one from 1982.
John,
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I am told that the magazine CLASSICA, in May 2010, gave the following ranking in a blind test about the 9° symphony/Mahler :
1. Sinopoli/Philharmonia (1993 DG)
2. Nott/Bamberg (2009 Tudor)
3. Haitink/Concertgebouw (1969 Philips)
4. Karajan/Berlin (1979/80 DG)
5. Bernstein/Berlin (live 1979 DG)
6. Sanderling/Berliner SO (1979 Berlin Classics)
7. Boulez/Chicago (1995 DG)
8. Abbado/Vienna (live 1987 DG)
It's interesting that they included Abbado's earlier version with VPO but not the BPO version. As for Karajan, they picked the analogue edition over the more famous digital one from 1982.
John,
I wonder how much ignorance of the Mahler discography and bad criticism could lead to the misunderstanding of Mahler's music and, in general, to bad taste.
Luca
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I am told that the magazine CLASSICA, in May 2010, gave the following ranking in a blind test about the 9° symphony/Mahler :
1. Sinopoli/Philharmonia (1993 DG)
2. Nott/Bamberg (2009 Tudor)
3. Haitink/Concertgebouw (1969 Philips)
4. Karajan/Berlin (1979/80 DG)
5. Bernstein/Berlin (live 1979 DG)
6. Sanderling/Berliner SO (1979 Berlin Classics)
7. Boulez/Chicago (1995 DG)
8. Abbado/Vienna (live 1987 DG)
It's interesting that they included Abbado's earlier version with VPO but not the BPO version. As for Karajan, they picked the analogue edition over the more famous digital one from 1982.
John,
It's nice to see Nott on this list.
--Todd
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It's nice to see Nott on this list.
--Todd
Well, if I were Nott, I would not be flattered to be considered worse than Philharmonia/Sinopoli... ;D Sinopoli did far better with the Staatskapelle Dresden. I suspect that the guys that wrote this list do not even know it.
L.
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It's French critics who gave this list.
I find it rather odd but also tasteful ;D!
I like it that both Abbado and Sinopoli made the list. To be sure, I like Sinopoli's DG recording very much; it's full of individualistic touches that are fascinating. If you don't like this kind of treat your ears my be turned off, but it works just fine for me.
John,
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It's nice to see Nott on this list.
--Todd
Well, if I were Nott, I would not be flattered to be considered worse than Philharmonia/Sinopoli... ;D Sinopoli did far better with the Staatskapelle Dresden. I suspect that the guys that wrote this list do not even know it.
L.
I haven't heard the Philharmonia/Sinopoli but I like Sinopoli's Staatskapelle Dresden recording...it's a strange but compelling M9!
I'm also glad to see Abbado's VPO M9 on here...the first M9 I ever heard complete. I still like it a lot, especially the strings.
--Todd
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Todd,
I know there are folks who hate the Sinopoli and Abbado. But hey, isn't it nice to have such alternative but compelling versions available? I listened to the Abbado last night and it sounded just great. In some ways, I prefer Abbado's Viennese recording over the BPO one.
John,
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Todd,
I know there are folks who hate the Sinopoli and Abbado. But hey, isn't it nice to have such alternative but compelling versions available? I listened to the Abbado last night and it sounded just great. In some ways, I prefer Abbado's Viennese recording over the BPO one.
John,
Someone likes DG Sinopoli's Ninth, someoone else has defined it a "decadent mess", but it's not the point. Everyone here has his own tastes and knows his Mahler. I'm sure there are even people that like Kletzki's Ninth, a Ninth with cuts in movements 2 and 3. If I were an honest critic that has to draw a list of reference recordings of the Ninth, I would not recommend Kletki's because the cuts make this version a misrepresentation of what Mahler had intended as his "Ninth Symphony". Ok, Kletki's is not on the list considered here, but, hey, look what this list lacks: no trace of Ancerl, Giulini, Klemperer, Masur, Tilson Thomas... no trace of the New York Philharmonic! And Karajan and Abbado are not present with what are generally considered their best renditions. How is possible to take this list seriously?
So, I think that the guys that compiled this list were simply trying to distinguish themselves, like the english critic that, not so much time ago, stated that the best Brunhilde's immolation scene ever put on disc is a certain one recorded in 1903 (sic!!!). I'm tired of this conformism of nonconformism and I won't care anymore about this or other weird lists.
Best regards,
Luca
P. S.
I know that Sinopoli conducted many Mahler's Symphonies, in Dresden, among them the 5th and the 6th., but I don't know with what results. Anyway, it would be nice to have the opportunity to listen to them: perhaps, the Staatskapelle Dresden is the best orchestra in Germany (pace BPO- even Karajan acknowledged that when he recorded the Meistersinger with them), so it is very regrettable we have so few Mahler's recordings from this orchestra (the new principal conductor, C. Thielemann, will conduct Mahler for the first time this autumn, but in Munich. Let's see what will happen).
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Todd,
I know there are folks who hate the Sinopoli and Abbado. But hey, isn't it nice to have such alternative but compelling versions available? I listened to the Abbado last night and it sounded just great. In some ways, I prefer Abbado's Viennese recording over the BPO one.
John,
I vastly prefer Abbado's VPO M9 over his later BPO account. I don't really enjoy his BPO, and somehow I feel I should but perhaps the sonics put me off...this recording has gotten great reviews but I'm not hearing the greatness. I want to like it. Someone help me like it!
--Todd
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Todd,
I know there are folks who hate the Sinopoli and Abbado. But hey, isn't it nice to have such alternative but compelling versions available? I listened to the Abbado last night and it sounded just great. In some ways, I prefer Abbado's Viennese recording over the BPO one.
John,
I vastly prefer Abbado's VPO M9 over his later BPO account. I don't really enjoy his BPO, and somehow I feel I should but perhaps the sonics put me off...this recording has gotten great reviews but I'm not hearing the greatness. I want to like it. Someone help me like it!
--Todd
Ditto ;D :D ;)
Like Todd, I've always felt that Abbado's second at go with BPO has been overrated. Yes, it has great playing - except for that terrible cymbal crash misplaced in the first climax of I. - and Abbado's take-no-prisoners kind of approach works pretty well in the middle movts. And yes, the Finale has a fine sense of proportion and the Berlin strings shine in the closing pages. But I. is somewhat undercharacterized; it's even shorter than IV. in its timing. Worst of all, the sonics are below par, especially in I. It is if as if the engineers were doing an experiment with buttons and knobs in the first 20-30 min. to find an optimal setting; the sound improves significantly from the second movt. on. Unfortunately, for me the rise and fall of Mahler Ninth goes with the great Andante movt. and for this reason and the others I can't really warm up to this recording. Abbado's early version with VPO may not be as well streamlined as this one, but I am told that was how he felts the piece should go at that time (he was under the spell of Berg) and I can fully buy his perspective.
IMO, Abbado's best M9th was the live recording with BPO from the 1995 Mahler Festival in Amsterdam, closely followed by the VPO recording.
Having said all this, I am still looking forward to his upcoming version with LFO.
John,
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Todd,
I know there are folks who hate the Sinopoli and Abbado. But hey, isn't it nice to have such alternative but compelling versions available? I listened to the Abbado last night and it sounded just great. In some ways, I prefer Abbado's Viennese recording over the BPO one.
John,
I vastly prefer Abbado's VPO M9 over his later BPO account. I don't really enjoy his BPO, and somehow I feel I should but perhaps the sonics put me off...this recording has gotten great reviews but I'm not hearing the greatness. I want to like it. Someone help me like it!
--Todd
Ditto ;D :D ;)
Like Todd, I've always felt that Abbado's second at go with BPO has been overrated. Yes, it has great playing - except for that terrible cymbal crash misplaced in the first climax of I. - and Abbado's take-no-prisoners kind of approach works pretty well in the middle movts. And yes, the Finale has a fine sense of proportion and the Berlin strings shine in the closing pages. But I. is somewhat undercharacterized; it's even shorter than IV. in its timing. Worst of all, the sonics are below par, especially in I. It is if as if the engineers were doing an experiment with buttons and knobs in the first 20-30 min. to find an optimal setting; the sound improves significantly from the second movt. on. Unfortunately, for me the rise and fall of Mahler Ninth goes with the great Andante movt. and for this reason and the others I can't really warm up to this recording. Abbado's early version with VPO may not be as well streamlined as this one, but I am told that was how he felts the piece should go at that time (he was under the spell of Berg) and I can fully buy his perspective.
IMO, Abbado's best M9th was the live recording with BPO from the 1995 Mahler Festival in Amsterdam, closely followed by the VPO recording.
Having said all this, I am still looking forward to his upcoming version with LFO.
John,
John,
Your comments reflect my feelings about the Abbado BPO. It is the first movement sonics that are dissapointing, and this ruins the recording.
His VPO is more mysterious, and like you said, not streamlined and rather wandering in spirit. This works somehow. I did not know Abbado was under the spell of Berg for his VPO account, but this makes sense! No wonder I love it.
--Todd
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IMO, Abbado's best M9th was the live recording with BPO from the 1995 Mahler Festival in Amsterdam, closely followed by the VPO recording.
Having said all this, I am still looking forward to his upcoming version with LFO.
John,
The VPO version was recorded in May 1987, in Vienna, live at the Konzerthaus (CD DGG).
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symphony-No-9-Gustav/dp/B00000E3ZW/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1280774829&sr=1-5
After the Mahlerfeest in Amsterdam, he recorded the celebrated BPO version in Berlin, in September 1999, live at the Philharmonie (CD DGG).
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symphony-No-9-Berliner-Philharmoniker/dp/B000063WRS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1280774829&sr=1-1
On April, 14, 2004, he recorded it with the Gustav Mahler Jugendorchester, live at the Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia, in Rome (DVD Euroarts).
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symphony-No-9-Claudio-Abbado/dp/B0006JHRE2/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1280773969&sr=1-1
I have a ticket for the concert of August, 20 in Luzern. I hope it will be worth the trip.
Luca
P.S.
In Rome, music and lights fade away together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiqD9Xc0WnE
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I found this recording very ordinary. Too fast and routine, Salonen doesn't add anything new to the score and just seems to go through the motion. The playing is very good but the sound quality, recorded live, is disappointing. It is as if the engineer had to stick in the mikes very close to the podium. Its sounds hopelessly closed-up, one dimensional, all centered around the conductor's position.
John,
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Todd,
I know there are folks who hate the Sinopoli and Abbado. But hey, isn't it nice to have such alternative but compelling versions available? I listened to the Abbado last night and it sounded just great. In some ways, I prefer Abbado's Viennese recording over the BPO one.
John,
I vastly prefer Abbado's VPO M9 over his later BPO account. I don't really enjoy his BPO, and somehow I feel I should but perhaps the sonics put me off...this recording has gotten great reviews but I'm not hearing the greatness. I want to like it. Someone help me like it!
--Todd
Todd - I only own Abbado's M6 and M7 BPO/DG and I think the sound quality is garbage on both. Hate it. Good playing, but the sonics just spoil it for me.
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I found this recording very ordinary. Too fast and routine, Salonen doesn't add anything new to the score and just seems to go through the motion. The playing is very good but the sound quality, recorded live, is disappointing. It is as if the engineer had to stick in the mikes very close to the podium. Its sounds hopelessly closed-up, one dimensional, all centered around the conductor's position.
John,
Rather surprisingly, this recording got a pretty mediocre review in the latest 'Gramophone' magazine. (Surprising to me because they usually find something good to say about any recording with British artists--in this case the orchestra.) It "fails to stir the emotions," the reviewer says. I think I'll skip this one....
Russell
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The sonics on Abbado/BPO/DG M7th and M9th are from mediocre to intolerable.
The Abbado/BPO/DG M6th (on SACD) is much better though (but not quite ideal).
The sound on Abbado/VPO/DG M9th, OTOH, is flawless, gorgeous and it is spectacularly recorded. I think it's one of the very best that DG did engineering-wise.
John,
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The sonics on Abbado/BPO/DG M7th and M9th are from mediocre to intolerable.
The Abbado/BPO/DG M6th (on SACD) is much better though (but not quite ideal).
The sound on Abbado/VPO/DG M9th, OTOH, is flawless, gorgeous and it is spectacularly recorded. I think it's one of the very best that DG did engineering-wise.
John,
Wow! I may check that out - thanks