gustavmahlerboard.com
General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Russ Smiley on August 12, 2010, 03:55:18 AM
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http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/SESSIONID/ec7aab2b4cb4386b077c9ba1291b8d54/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-Symphonie-Nr-9/hnum/3678561
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Sounds very promising!
--Todd
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Here's a direct link to Sony/BMG Classical's own website, which I think sounds a little clearer
http://klassik.sonymusic.de/David-Zinman/Mahler-Symphony-No-9/P/2390952
John, have you listened to this? Am I going crazy, or does the start of the first movement sound completely re-harmonized? Is this some new critical edition? Certainly Romy thinks I'm crazy, but perhaps the download is somehow producing weird overtones (?). In the second Mvt., those crunched chords in the low strings sound fairly different too. Very weird. Anyone else?
Barry
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Wow, I listened through these again, and the start of the second movement sounds quite different to me - mostly in the harmonizations. Anyone else notice this?
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Aside from balance, I don't detect material differences between this new Zinman performance and the Chailly version (to which the new recording, on first exposure, was most similar). Maybe others will differ or prove me wrong?
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I want to be wrong, so maybe the download is causing some weird distortions on my end. Sounds a little like Mahler meets Milhaud (polytonality), which is sort of a cool idea, I suppose.
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I agree with Russ. Zinman seems to have balanced or voiced some of the chords differently than usual (something I enjoy about his Mahler in general), but I hear no different notes present. Additionally, there seems to be an odd electronic "thickening" of some of the string chords Barry refers to in the second movement; this could be an artifact of the Lo-Rez samples that have been posted. Disclaimer: I'm listening right now on decent but by no means reference-quality computer speakers.
James
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Good, I want to be wrong. I'm at work, and am listening on a pretty mediocre set of headphones.
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In general, with these Zinman ZTO recordings, I feel like I am listening from in the audience, many rows from the stage but in a 'crisp' yet deep hall. Often I find modern recordings provide an 'on-the-podium' perspective (compete with the ocnductor's humming, grunting, and stomps): while fascinating, this isn't what I hear in the the hall as a spectator. This 'realism' is one of the reasons I appreciate this Zinman/ZTO series. It feels more true to my own experiences while also giving great detail to the inner parts that otherwise are often buried. This M9 seem consistent with my prior experience with the series.
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Here's a direct link to Sony/BMG Classical's own website, which I think sounds a little clearer
http://klassik.sonymusic.de/David-Zinman/Mahler-Symphony-No-9/P/2390952
John, have you listened to this? Am I going crazy, or does the start of the first movement sound completely re-harmonized? Is this some new critical edition? Certainly Romy thinks I'm crazy, but perhaps the download is somehow producing weird overtones (?). In the second Mvt., those crunched chords in the low strings sound fairly different too. Very weird. Anyone else?
Barry
Barry,
Indeed the beginning of 1st movt. is unusually balanced in that the first and second horn notes marked p which take over from the opening note by the low cello are way too weak, almost inaudible. However, three bars later there are ascending notes by stopped (snarling) horns and they are clearly audible. But then I realize they are marked f. So, it seems that Zinman wanted to make the notes sharply contrasted by applying two very different dynamics to them. I've never heard them played this way and I don't think what I am hearing is due to the download effect.
Yes, the strings in the beginning of II are also very loud and strong, stronger than usual.
Very interesting.
John,
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Naturally, all this is making me crazy and have my fingers crossed :D ;D ???.
John,
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Wow...the beginning of the 1st movement sounds glorious. My hopes have risen.
--Todd
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In general, with these Zinman ZTO recordings, I feel like I am listening from in the audience, many rows from the stage but in a 'crisp' yet deep hall.
This stood out to me as well. However one thing that bugged me a bit in the samples was the 2nd theme in the 2nd movement (clarinet entrance after bassoons). It seemed to lack the Mahler "grotesque" quality and instead came across as a bit timid.
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Yes, the second movement did not have as much awkwardness as some other recordings do. But oh what a glorious sound! I've liked Zinman's ZTO Mahler recordings because of the acoustics in the hall--very vibrant.
Oh, and that Finale...can you say "dreamy"? Definitely very delicious indeed. I can't wait for this one...any word on anETA here in the states?
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Does anybody know when this is coming out?
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hmv.co.jp has currently two reviews of this recording. One gave full star rating while the other one gave only 3 out of 5, something.
The rave review seems to compare Zinman's reading with those of Giulini and MTT that are similarly proportioned. It says this is a culmination in Zinman's Mahler cycle and timpani has a very vivid presence in the first movt. Don't ask me more because I don't know Japanese all that much :P.
Anyway, my expectation goes really high at this moment.
John,
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Does anybody know when this is coming out?
http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=8229718&style=classical
It will be released here tomorrow!! :o ;D :D
John,
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If I wait a little longer I can get it with a $5.00 off coupon at Silverplatter!! ;D
John,
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I have it on order, since today...I just can't wait to hear this. The cycle is nearly finished now...
I forgot...is there word Zinman is going to do DLVde and the M10?
--Todd
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I forgot...is there word Zinman is going to do DLVde and the M10?
Don't know about a DLvdE but the M10 will be the Carpenter Edition (which I haven't heard yet, so I'm quite interested!).
No word on a DLvdE on his discography page (http://www.davidzinman.org/discography.php) either.
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hi folks,
I finally listened to the samples on my home computer, and it sounded much more normal. For whatevever the reason, the signal coming through the line at work distorted the sound so much, that it was causing weird overtones that made the harmonies sound different and slightly dissonant. It was the line, I'm sure.
And yes, my understanding is that Zinman did the Carpenter 10th. It'll be great to have another take on that.
Barry
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In the States this SACD seems to be available only as an import because it takes 7-10 days for them to ship it out. Its price which is in $21-24 range strongly also suggests it's an import.
Can anyone confirm this?
John,
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I am confused:
http://www.cduniverse.com/sresult.asp?artistid=146441&HT_Search=artist&HT_Search_Info=David+Zinman
Will we have BOTH redbook CD and SACD versions of this recording on sale?
Then, how come the CD is more expensive than the SACD?? ??? ::)
John,
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So, has anyone heard the recording in its entirety yet? ???
John,
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I still regard Zinman's concert with Aspen Festival Orch. in the 90s one of the greatest M9ths. It's an extraordinarily well structured, nuanced, expressive, balanced, and powerful performance.
John
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I still regard Zinman's concert with Aspen Festival Orch. in the 90s one of the greatest M9ths. It's an extraordinarily well structured, nuanced, expressive, balanced, and powerful performance.
John
John,
I'm glad to hear of the strong presence of the timpani in this new recording, based on one of the reviews from Japan, that you referenced earlier in the thread. His Aspen recording had powerful timpani and brass in the climaxes. I have a good feeling about this recording. I'm still waiting for it to come in the mail!
--Todd
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I ordered mine, and I'm looking forward to everyone's thoughts.
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I ordered mine too, through CDuniverse.
Strangely, they also list a release of regular CD version on 8/31 and it's more expensive than the SACD!!
John,
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Somebody on a Korean classical music website left a brief but but stimulating review. It goes something like,
"Zinman's Mahler cycle has always left something to be desired, but this time he hits the ball out of the park. Without a doubt I think this is his greatest Mahler recording so far. Only Das Lied von der Erde remains now."
Wow...
John,
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My copy arrived yesterday! I'm waiting for this evening to sit back, with a little whiskey, to hear this new M9! I can't wait till I'm done with work today.
--Todd
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I take liberty of attaching a message sent by Todd: :-* ;)
"John,
Zinman's M9 is simply a knock out! I'm crushed by such an emotional experience! It reminds me somewhat of Nott, but sounds like it was created on a bigger scale, or larger canvas. Nott's is perhaps a little more personal in tone, but Zinman's interpretation is both personal, AND cosmic. Indeed, it is like a mind meld between Lenny and Karajan! But don't get me wrong, Zinman is his own man here. AND he improves on his Aspen performance by MILES.
You can be rest assured about the climaxes...the sonics and orchestra are more than up to the challenge. As a matter of fact, Zinman's orchestra is the one element that puts him slightly ahead of Nott. I have a feeling Hurwitz will mention this later. Nott's M9 is like a sister to Zinman's account. I like both, and both are of the highest standard in playing, tone, and drama for an M9 of the 21st Century. I have a feeling you will be very impressed with the playing.
As you know, I still love the Rattle BPO M9, but it can't compete in terms of sonics. Zinman, Nott, Oue, and MTT are the creme of the crop in terms of sonics.
The third climax in I. may be the most impressive sonically, in terms of hearing all that is in the score here. The rusticity of the minuet will make you smile, again, I have to mention how fine the orchestra is, especially in dynamics.
The blooming crescendos in the Rondo will also surprise you. AND the final climax in the Adagio will blow your mind. The sonics are perhaps the best of the cycle. Matching and perhaps exceeding his M3, M6 and M8 recordings.
The tempos, again, are like Nott, meaning that Zinman is patient, and there is no unnecessary rushing during any of the climaxes, thank God. I like how the climaxes in I. are not rushed. The tempos are treated with thought, and care, during the transitions all over the score. Energy is not wasted, and this brings huge dividends later as the score progresses movement to movement.
I can't wait for you to hear it. I'm almost sure this recording will lay you out on the floor...and your wife will have to help you to your feet!
More later...I will post publicly when I get my thoughts in order.
Cheers!!!!!
--Todd"
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Cool beans.
In your humble opinion, does this recording compare to Chailly's M9?
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chalkpie, I like the sonics better on the Zinman, but Chailly is no slouch, he has the RCO after all! I'd have to revisit the Chailly again for a more in depth comparison, but Zinman's M9 appears to have a little more drive and power, but again, it's been awhile since I heard the Chailly. Zinman's orchestra really sound great, and the playing is top notch all the way.
It's the morning after, and I still feel the same about the Zinman... 8) :D Thanks John for taking the liberty, as I was going to just post that anyway! ;)
--Todd
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Oh, wow...I've gotta hear this...
CDUniverse's website says that the SACD cannot play on a standard CD player...is that the case? Because I don't have an SACD player.
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Oh, wow...I've gotta hear this...
CDUniverse's website says that the SACD cannot play on a standard CD player...is that the case? Because I don't have an SACD player.
That shouldn't be the case.
I also ordered one copy from this place but i hasn't been shipped yet.
Strangely, there seems to a release of regular CD version coming soon.
John,
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The comments here have sold me !
I've ordered mine from Grooves-Inc in Europe. The listing says Hybrid SACD.
http://www.grooves-inc.com/product_info.php/products_id/688335135?osCsid=3c876c3639ad602f9c1b2f25a81c3091
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It's really good for such an expansive performance. The first mvt. is over 30 minutes, and the finale goes past 28. The two inner movements are fairly normal. I really like Zinman's second mvt. Overall, Zinman's 9th reminds me a lot of the Levine/Philly one, but with much better sound.
I'm sure that there aren't separate "red book" issues of the cd. In other words, I'm sure they're all hybrids.
Barry
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chalkpie, I like the sonics better on the Zinman, but Chailly is no slouch, he has the RCO after all! I'd have to revisit the Chailly again for a more in depth comparison, but Zinman's M9 appears to have a little more drive and power, but again, it's been awhile since I heard the Chailly. Zinman's orchestra really sound great, and the playing is top notch all the way.
--Todd
Todd - If you're feeling up to it, is there any way you can revisit Chailly's M9 and do a bit of a comparison? I love the Chailly to bits - so if this one is even close, I may have to jump! Thanks man!
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So you've got yours too, Barry? Where did you get it from? I'm trying to find the quickest way to get one but everyone seems to be backordered. D:
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In case it hasn't shown through...I really wanna hear this. I've really liked Zinman's M5 and M6, and judging by the reviews I've read this appears as though it might give the Rattle/BPO a run for its money.
In any event...I'm a sucker for a good M9. ;-)
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Amazon.co.uk has the MP3 download available here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symphony-No-digital-booklet/dp/B003Z630VW
Am I able to buy that MP3 album using my account, being in the U.S.? If so will Amazon handle the appropriate currency conversions on the credit card?
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Amazon.co.uk has the MP3 download available here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symphony-No-digital-booklet/dp/B003Z630VW
Am I able to buy that MP3 album using my account, being in the U.S.? If so will Amazon handle the appropriate currency conversions on the credit card?
Hi Michael, I remember when I ordered through Amazon UK, I needed a new account. When I ordered, the currency conversation was automatic, if I remember correctly. You may even want to call Amazon to make sure.
I ordered my copy from Grooves-Inc, like Brunumb did, and I got it in less than a week!
--Todd
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chalkpie, I like the sonics better on the Zinman, but Chailly is no slouch, he has the RCO after all! I'd have to revisit the Chailly again for a more in depth comparison, but Zinman's M9 appears to have a little more drive and power, but again, it's been awhile since I heard the Chailly. Zinman's orchestra really sound great, and the playing is top notch all the way.
--Todd
Todd - If you're feeling up to it, is there any way you can revisit Chailly's M9 and do a bit of a comparison? I love the Chailly to bits - so if this one is even close, I may have to jump! Thanks man!
I wish I could, but I'm about to fly out of Arizona for my vacation. I may burn it to my iPod to listen on the way!
--Todd
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I'm sorry, but I can't and won't reveal my source. I'm sure that this person got their copy from Japan. Anyway, mine is a burnt copy from that one. But not to worry, it'll show up soon enough!
Anyway, I'm not sure that I like hearing the 9th played in such an expansive manner more than a couple times per year. For day-to-day listening, I like how the piece is proportioned more on the Alan Gilbert M9 (first movement: 25-something, last movement: 26-something). Masur's N.Y. M9 is proportioned very much the same way, but I like Gilbert's even more.
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Overall, Zinman's 9th reminds me a lot of the Levine/Philly one, but with much better sound.
Barry
That's really good to hear as I love the Levine very much.
Regards,
John,
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My copy has been shipped today! ;D :D
John,
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I ordered my copy from Grooves-Inc via Amazon.com...can't wait to hear it! :D
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Somebody on a Korean classical music website left a brief but but stimulating review. It goes something like,
"Zinman's Mahler cycle has always left something to be desired, but this time he hits the ball out of the park. Without a doubt I think this is his greatest Mahler recording so far. Only Das Lied von der Erde remains now."
Wow...
John,
Another rave review just popped up. It goes something like,
"Although the beginning of I. is somewhat unsettled the performance gathers strength and focus as it moves along. The great Adagio that ends the symphony is given such a beautiful treat here. The middle movts. are pretty good too."
John,
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Todd,
Do you agree that the beginning of I. is somewhat unsettled? :-[ ???
John
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Todd,
Do you agree that the beginning of I. is somewhat unsettled? :-[ ???
John
Unsettled in I? Try also the beginning of IV. The string entrances are liked scared children entering a dark room during a thunder storm.
As a whole, it's a bloodless performance of the score. The very opening of IV, for instance, has all the personal involvement of a small store owner cleaning the outside window of his shop before opening. For heaven's sake, even de Waart--never known as "Mr. Passion"--and his Netherlands bunch emote more.
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Todd,
Do you agree that the beginning of I. is somewhat unsettled? :-[ ???
John
Unsettled in I? Try also the beginning of IV. The string entrances are liked scared children entering a dark room during a thunder storm.
As a whole, it's a bloodless performance of the score. The very opening of IV, for instance, has all the personal involvement of a small store owner cleaning the outside window of his shop before opening. For heaven's sake, even de Waart--never known as "Mr. Passion"--and his Netherlands bunch emote more.
By now we should all know that "passion" is not an integral element of Zinman's Mahler cycle. I'd rather look for 'lucidity', 'transparency', 'careful balance', things like that. But thank you for reporting your (first) impression. No wonder the Japaneses are all split about this one.
I own the de Waart recording and like it very much, despite the somewhat underwhelming I.
Back in early 80s he led SFSO in one of the best M9th concerts I ever recall. It was a near perfect M9th in my book. Too bad he had to record the cycle in Netherlands instead.
John,
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John,
The de Waart cycle has a few winners in it. Not first choices but mid-to-top contenders, at least for me. I also wish he would have had a shot at Mahler with SF, an orchestra of tremendous potential when they are not being asked to pirouette along with MTT's self-conscious mannerisms. I just revisited a few of SF's recordings with Blomstedt (some Strauss and the Nielsen Symphonies) which reminded me of the inherent greatness of that band.
A thought I have had about the Zinman Mahlers as I've collected each installment, is that maybe he is conducting for what the orchestra can give him. I don't believe the Tonhalle, for their many great qualities in music of other composers, has the sound and/or personnel for Mahler. Their strings are consistently weak-sounding as every recording has been tweaked towards the brass and winds, and in the 8th, the organ, percussion and choir. Even in the brass and winds sections they can't compete with the likes of NYP, BPO, BSO, SFO, CSO, RCO, to name but a few. With the bar for performance and instrumental execution having been raised so high by so many previous and current conductors/orchestras, Zinman's recordings--for all the "lucidity, transparency, and careful balance" you hear in them--are, for my ears only, merely good efforts by a good orchestra in state-of-the-art sound.
For me, "revelatory" is also an important component necessary to justify any Mahler recording appearing in the saturated Mahler-symphony market although, I must admit, I end up buying everything that appears out of desperate curiosity and hope for enlightenment. With only Litton to compete with, I sincerely hope that the Tonhalle's Mahler-Carpenter 10th will turn out as "something special." Since it's so heavily dependent on orchestral execution and brilliance, I have my doubts. Now, if only San Francisco would tackle that score with (insert favorite baton wielder here). With my luck, it'll be Ashkenazy or Neeme Jarvi, with whoever is unfortunate enough to let them in the building, conducting something else they are sight-reading.
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I finally received my copy.
One thing I immediately noticed is that the recording sound, whether on the SACD or CD layer, is distant and rather claustrophobic. The depth may have been enhanced but compared to all other previous recordings in the cycle it is definitely 'narrow'. Overall, it sounds similar to Tennstedt's studio recording albeit that the dynamic range is not compromised. I had a hard time adjusting to this change because I was so used to the open, close-up sonics in the previous installments. Maybe turning the volume will help but I have not tried it yet.
Regarding Zinman's interpretation, it has mellowed down over the years (how could it not?) but he keeps the architecture of the great opening movt. tight and well controlled. About 7'35" into the music right after the first climax Zinman does an unusual thing in the percussion; whereas the timpani is marked pp in the score, he has it pounded more like ff. Very odd but it worked fine with me. Perhaps he was using a different edition? Who knows.
The orchestra plays very well most of the time but I felt that their ensemble was limited compared to say, VPO or RCO; the woodwinds are not as prominent as they could be (I wanted to hear them screaming more), and horns were occasionally buried under the blaring trumpets. OTOH, I liked Zinman's second movt. a lot. Here he keeps the opening section moving at a fleeting tempo and yet doesn't forget to differentiate the tempo between the slow and fast passages. The RB is just fine, lacking the last degree of wilderness and uncontrolled energy. Clocking at over 28 min. the Adagio is very slow but in the last as well as intermediate pages Zinman finds nostalgia, reconciliation, and a deep sense of departing the world. Throughout the movt. the Zurich strings shine giving everything they could for their conductor. That said, they will not be mistaken as Berlin or Viennese strings!
All in all, a worthy continuation in Zniman's ongoing Mahler cycle, slightly marred by the sonics.
John,
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I must admit John I'm rather disappointed by that review, nothing personal obviously. :( I know you were looking forward to this one and I was hoping I'd read a rave review from you...you probably have the best ears among us! :) Ah well, such is life...I really wanted this one to be top-notch though.
I've thought the sonics in Zinman's M5 and M6 were distant...is this M9 more distant than that?
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I must admit John I'm rather disappointed by that review, nothing personal obviously. :( I know you were looking forward to this one and I was hoping I'd read a rave review from you...you probably have the best ears among us! :) Ah well, such is life...I really wanted this one to be top-notch though.
I've thought the sonics in Zinman's M5 and M6 were distant...is this M9 more distant than that?
Zinman's M5 & M6 are distant sounding? Far from it, compared to the Ninth.
PL make no mistake. This is a solid M9th, but I expected more ... having heard Zinman's fabulous live concert with Aspen Festival Orch.
John,
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Michael,
Do you own Abbado's first go at the symphony with VPO?
I have a feeling that you'd be pretty satisfied with the recording as it provides the young conductor's raw instinct and fierce energy in a most amazing way imaginable. The playing is phenomenal, the recording quality hard to beat (I said the sound is one of the very best DG has ever engineered).
John,
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I was right about the low level recording.
At a higher level, it sounds better focused, and better balanced with orchestral details coming out more vividly.
And Zinman's organic logic and patient development with the symphony have become more convincing this time around.
Still, I find the woodwinds are hardly audible in the climatic passages of I. (no screaming!!) and the final breakdown around 20 min. not powerful enough.
Next time I will crank up the volume higher.
John,
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I stand by my original thoughts. I first listened to this with the volume up, and was amazed at the performance. I like the sonics because I feel like I'm in the hall, and I'm not too close to the orchestra. For me, all of Zinman's Mahler cycle sounds like this, it's one of the features I really like about this cycle.
Also, the beginning of the first movement is anything but unstettled...I hear confidence from the orchestra...I hear a strong sense of self.
:)
--Todd
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John,
No, I do not have that Abbado M9.
Mine should hopefully be coming in today or tomorrow...I can't wait! ;-)
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At a higher level, it sounds better focused, and better balanced with orchestral details coming out more vividly.
Still, I find the woodwinds are hardly audible in the climatic passages of I. (no screaming!!) and the final breakdown around 20 min. not powerful enough.
John,
I was wondering, having M1, M5, M6 and M8 and reading other people's thoughts, that the recordings are made with microphones in the audience rather than on the podium, if that might be the reason for the hardly audible woodwinds in climactic passages?
I'm sure, everyone of us knows, that in each concert hall, different seats emphasize different sounds from the orchestra, and some recordings choose the conductor's podium as microphone position. I've seen on this forum different preferences, but it seems to me unrealistic (without tinkering) to have an audible clarinet when the trombones are blasting away (not even outside of Chicago).
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John,
I was wondering, having M1, M5, M6 and M8 and reading other people's thoughts, that the recordings are made with microphones in the audience rather than on the podium, if that might be the reason for the hardly audible woodwinds in climactic passages?
I'm sure, everyone of us knows, that in each concert hall, different seats emphasize different sounds from the orchestra, and some recordings choose the conductor's podium as microphone position. I've seen on this forum different preferences, but it seems to me unrealistic (without tinkering) to have an audible clarinet when the trombones are blasting away (not even outside of Chicago).
Microphones in the audience?? Never head of that kind of setting! :o
Besides, all of Zinman's Mahler recordings are made in studio, NOT live. So I wonder how they could put the mikes in the audience. Did you mean putting them in the audience seats?
If you look closely at the score, there are many places in which the woodwinds are instructed to play ff or fff along with brass and strings. Sometimes they play in the same harmony as the other instruments. But there are also times when their notes are different, in different harmony and even different melodies. For example, at the height of the third climax in I. the orchestra is literally breaking down in descending notes (right before the tam tam stroke). Here, woodwinds are playing in high notes. Clearly, Mahler must have wanted them to 'scream' above all other instruments. I can hear this effect most vividly in Abbado/VPO/DG and Ashkenazy/CPO/Exton. It's a truly wonderful orchestration and once you hear it you'd never want to miss it.
Sadly, I can't hear it at all in Zinman's recording because the woodwinds are all buried under the brass and percussion.
John,
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I don't want to be critical of people, but it appears that some haven't been to a live concert in quite some time. There are interesting things to see in a concert hall other than looking at the orchestra the entire time.
Yes, microphones are often placed in the audience, but in the seats? ??? ::) Rather, they're hung oftentimes about a quarter of the way out in the audience, and about a quarter to a third of the way down from the ceiling. Generally, these microphones are intended to give the recording an overall acoustic perspective of the hall to the recording. Maybe in some cases, these microphones may be set at a higher level in the mixer than they should be, and important instrumental details fail to get captured. Consider also, that this is a concert setting, not a studio one, where acoustical adjustments (i.e., more microphones) in the hall can be made for the latter.
Since board member James Meckley has been involved in live recording, maybe he can provide some thoughts here.
Wade
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Gun to my head: I would always prefer to hear an up close recording of an orch capturing details rather than a "hall" recording a la Abbado Berlin DG which sounds like bloody hell
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For such an expansive performance, I like this Zinman one very much. I find the last movement to be very satisfying. It's just not a great Mahler 9 for everyday listening (because of its length). Then again, anybody who's listening to M9 every day needs a new girlfriend of mistress.
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For such an expansive performance, I like this Zinman one very much. I find the last movement to be very satisfying. It's just not a great Mahler 9 for everyday listening (because of its length). Then again, anybody who's listening to M9 every day needs a new girlfriend of mistress.
Tell it to my wife!! ;D ;D
John,
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Gun to my head: I would always prefer to hear an up close recording of an orch capturing details rather than a "hall" recording a la Abbado Berlin DG which sounds like bloody hell
If so, you should try the Abbado/VPO/DG by all means.
John,
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"If so, you should try the Abbado/VPO/DG by all means."
I think that the BPO one is much better shaped (timings) and better disciplined than the VPO one. But the VPO one was recorded in the Konzerthaus, as opposed to the Musikverein. For my taste, it's actually a bit too "boomy" in the lower end of orchestra. But it certainly doesn't sound too dry and sterile as some of the live Musikverein recordings can, and often times DO, sound.
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Since board member James Meckley has been involved in live recording, maybe he can provide some thoughts here.
I haven't yet heard the Zinman M9 so I'm not in a position to compare it with earlier releases in this series, but that won't stop me from making some general observations. The earlier Zinman Mahler discs I own were all created by the same team: Chris Hazell, producer; and Simon Eadon, engineer. Assuming they also did this M9 (someone might check), they would have been able to reproduce their earlier results exactly if they had wanted to—their recording logs would contain very precise mic placement and level data. If the woodwinds are indeed more recessed in M9 than in M6, you can be certain that it was a deliberate artistic decision on the part of Hazell or Zinman (If you want to see how much say the producer has in these matters, just watch some of the interactions between Culshaw and Solti in Decca's The Golden Ring DVD).
My general impression of the Zinman Mahler cycle is that they've taken advantage of the Tonhalle's rather spacious acoustics to make some very natural-sounding recordings with more room sound than is common today. I agree with Todd in preferring this approach when it's done well.
I tried to get some mic-placement insights by reviewing the Going Against Fate DVD associated with Zinman's M6, but the lighting designer seems to have been unduly influenced by the paintings of Caravaggio—inky-black shadows and single-light-source chiaroscuro throughout—not a microphone to be seen.
As to general mic placement considerations, the stereo pair that Wade described, 1/4 of the way back into the hall and 1/3 of the way down from the ceiling, is typically there for the orchestra's own archival recordings or perhaps for local radio broadcast. With the right choice of mic patterns, this placement can produce a very natural-sounding recording that accurately preserves the instrumental balances heard in the hall. Horenstein's famous 1959 M8 was recorded this way, with just one coincident pair of figure-of-eight microphones in Blumlein configuration. I've occasionally used this basic approach, slightly closer than described, with gratifying results.
A more conventional (and more commercially viable) approach to stereo involves having the primary pair somewhat closer to the orchestra, with additional spot mics added to bring out inner detail. The primary pair, which accounts for 90 to 95 percent of the sound of the recording, is typically located six to eight feet behind the conductor and eight or so feet above his head. Getting this pair in the right place is the most important part of a set up. Moving away from the orchestra increases hall ambiance; moving toward the orchestra decreases it. Accent or spot mics are then added as necessary to bring out detail: typically left and right string mics; a woodwind pair; and percussion or specialty mics as dictated by the specific piece. This is where the skill and taste of the engineer come into play: the goal is to make your eight or ten-mic recording sound like it was made with only two mics—always the ideal. High quality digital delay makes this much easier now than in the early decades of stereo, allowing the signals from all the spot mics to be precisely time-aligned with the signals from the primary pair, thus preserving the integrity of the sonic image.
James
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...My general impression of the Zinman Mahler cycle is that they've taken advantage of the Tonhalle's rather spacious acoustics to make some very natural-sounding recordings with more room sound than is common today..... James
Thank you, James, for this excellent, insightful post. I do appreciate in this cycle the spacious acoustics and natural sound that you cited.
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James,
Thank you for that post...lots of great information there!
--Todd
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James,
Thanks for the writing.
"If the woodwinds are indeed more recessed in M9 than in M6, you can be certain that it was a deliberate artistic decision on the part of Hazell or Zinman (If you want to see how much say the producer has in these matters, just watch some of the interactions between Culshaw and Solti in Decca's The Golden Ring DVD)."
In the liner note it says M9th is as spare as Webern. So, maybe that's made them to decide pull the mikes away from the orchestra for the recording to make it sound spare.
I will tell you, Zinman's M9th is a distant sounding recording. I said it sounds similar to Tennstedt's studio recording. So, you get the idea ;).
John
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In the liner note it says M9th is as spare as Webern. So, maybe that's made them to decide pull the mikes away from the orchestra for the recording to make it sound spare.
John,
That's certainly possible, although if mimicking Webern were the goal, I'd have moved the microphones in even closer, striving for more detail rather than less. Webern's spareness and economy of means produce an extraordinary clarity and transparency of texture that wouldn't be enhanced at all by a distant-sounding recording.
BTW, did Hazell and Eadon do this recording of the Ninth? The recording crew should be listed in the booklet somewhere.
James
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"I will tell you, Zinman's M9th is a distant sounding recording. I said it sounds similar to Tennstedt's studio recording"
I don't see that comparison at all. For one thing, the climax to the fourth movement sounds HUGE on this Zinman recording. It might also be a matter of recording level, as the Rondo-Burlesque is much louder than people think. It's almost like rock music: constant noise from start to finish (excluding the middle section, obviously). Like Karajan, I think that Zinman wanted the major climaxes to the outer movements to really stand as peaks above everything else. The Tennstedt M9 is much more conjested sounding, because it's much older recording made by a somewhat incompetent EMI staff (incompetent during that particular, post Previn/LSO period). Just my two cents. John, look at the forest, and not just the trees.
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"I will tell you, Zinman's M9th is a distant sounding recording. I said it sounds similar to Tennstedt's studio recording"
I don't see that comparison at all. For one thing, the climax to the fourth movement sounds HUGE on this Zinman recording. It might also be a matter of recording level, as the Rondo-Burlesque is much louder than people think. It's almost like rock music: constant noise from start to finish (excluding the middle section, obviously). Like Karajan, I think that Zinman wanted the major climaxes to the outer movements to really stand as peaks above everything else. The Tennstedt M9 is much more conjested sounding, because it's much older recording made by a somewhat incompetent EMI staff (incompetent during that particular, post Previn/LSO period). Just my two cents. John, look at the forest, and not just the trees.
When I mentioned the similiarity between the two recordings I said,
"Overall, it sounds similar to Tennstedt's studio recording albeit that the dynamic range is not compromised."
Since sonics affect recordings from the first moment to the last, I am not sure what else I am looking at if I am not looking at the 'forest'. :-\ ???
John,
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I got my copy today...am listening now! So far, to me at least, the sound seems similar to that of his M5 and M6. Perhaps this is just something with the SACD layer?
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"albeit that the dynamic range is not compromised"
That part wasn't included in your post just a few spots up. However, I'm noting it now, and withdraw my "trees from the forest" criticism. Sorry about that.
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Aside from balance, I don't detect material differences between this new Zinman performance and the Chailly version (to which the new recording, on first exposure, was most similar). Maybe others will differ or prove me wrong?
My original comment was based upon the samples. Now, I've received my copy of this CD from an Argentinian supplier (via ebay). I've listened to it twice on my Zune on my latest business trip. Subsequently, I've listened to Chailly, Bertini, Gilbert, etc. As much as I wanted to like this performance (portions of the M1, M2, M3, M6, and M8 truly are magnificent), this M9 is a cadaver compared to the performances that have stuck with me. That is the best description I can offer. It is 'substance' barely draped over the skeleton. If that was Zinman's intention, he suceeded magnificently.
Sometime around 1982 I was total overwhelmed by the Giulini M9, a performace that turned my opinion of Mahler from "if you are despondent, this guy will push you over the edge" to "he is the greatest composer bar none."
With M9, I have been 'persuaded' by Giulini, Bernstein (NYPO), Bertini, Lopez-Cobos, Mund, and Abbado/BPO. Frankly, this performance leaves me perplexed. Maybe after a few more listenings I may get the perspective, but as of tonight, I remain dismayed.
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Hey, Russ,
I am pretty much in the same boat as you are with regard to the Zinman.
I LOVE his M6th which I think is one of the best modern versions. I like the 3rd, 7th and 8th as well, albeit slight reservations.
As for the Ninth, I expected more from Zinman because his live performance with Aspen Festival Orch. blew me away.
It's not a bad performance or a recording per se. But with the Ninth Symphony, the competition is pretty stiff and we're all spoiled by Bernstein, Levine, Ozawa, Bertini, Giulini, and even Karajan.
Perhaps a better ensemble such as BPO or VPO might have delivered Zinman's vision more convincingly. But as it is, the TOZ simply doesn't seem to have the kind of virtuosity, lung power and the right timbre and colors for the piece.
Distant and somewhat cavernous, even the recording quality is sub par, compared to the earlier ones in the cycle.
Having said all these, repeated listening has revealed some strength in the music making.
So, I will keep this one on my shelve :-[ ;).
John
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I got my Zinman M9 last Tuesday (the seventh) and meant to do a review but never got around to it. I will at some point though.
The ending of the Rondo is a real sticking point for me. The tempo is no different (perhaps a hair faster, but I really do not think so) at the end than in the beginning, which, judging by every other recording I have heard, is not the way it is supposed to be done. The first movement is so vast that I need more time with it before I can report my thoughts. I did think that the second movement lacked that final degree of harshness, just as did the Rondo. Zinman's "gentler" sound pays off at times in the Finale, but I have issues there too. The most noticeable, for me at least, is his sudden accellerando at 6:27 (during the C sharp minor violin solo). The viola solo is nice and controled, but for some reason when the violin solo appears Zinman speeds up. For me that is a passage of great emotion and thus it is not to be rushed through. Playing the whole passage at a quicker tempo is one thing, but speeding up halfway through...no thanks. It just rouins the mood. If one wants to speed up the tempo, one should do so at the french horn solo just after that passage--it is a nice, natural transition from a quiet, minor theme to a louder, major one. For an example of how well this can be achieved, Bernstein does this wonderfully in his Berlin recording.
Overall...I am a bit disappointed with this recording, as I had much higher expectations for it. But I am glad I have heard it because, like probably many others, I would not have been happy until I had. I look forward to hearing it on an SACD player if I can ever find one to listen on.
So, my "favorites" list remains pretty much unchanged: Rattle/BPO, Bernstein/BPO, and the Barbirolli/BPO is growing on me--I have always liked his first movement. Runners up: Levine/PO, Giulini (especially for his first two movements), and the Bernstein/RCOA (even with that dischordant wrong note there in the Finale).
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I'm sorry, but I don't "get" all this fussing. To me, the bottom line is this: if you want a truly expansive Mahler 9th - one that's similar to Levine/Philly in the two outer movements - but with better, more up-to-date sound, then get this one. If that's not your bag, then don't bother. For me, as a recording, I find the Levine one almost un-listenable in comparison to the Zinman. The rest is just examining the trees too carefully.
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Zinman's "gentler" sound pays off at times in the Finale, but I have issues there too. The most noticeable, for me at least, is his sudden accellerando at 6:27 (during the C sharp minor violin solo).
So, my "favorites" list remains pretty much unchanged: Rattle/BPO, Bernstein/BPO, and the Barbirolli/BPO is growing on me--I have always liked his first movement. Runners up: Levine/PO, Giulini (especially for his first two movements), and the Bernstein/RCOA (even with that dischordant wrong note there in the Finale).
Michael,
You really nailed it down.
Zinman's 'gentler' and 'relaxed' approach somehow doesn't work well for the symphony. The reason? Because M9th is a quite 'modern' piece that will shine with a sharp, alert approach. Well, if the playing was more focused and better, Zinman's way with the score might still have scored higher, but we're not talking about BPO or VPO here.
Barry mentioned similarity to Levine's celebrated Philadelphia recording. But other than the slow tempo, I don't see much similarity.
Of the two, I'd definitely go for the Levine. :'(
That's me. ;) :)
John,
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I'm sorry, but I don't "get" all this fussing. To me, the bottom line is this: if you want a truly expansive Mahler 9th - one that's similar to Levine/Philly in the two outer movements - but with better, more up-to-date sound, then get this one. If that's not your bag, then don't bother. For me, as a recording, I find the Levine one almost un-listenable in comparison to the Zinman. The rest is just examining the trees too carefully.
I'm with Barry on this one...I think this is one of the best expansive M9's on the market now (along with Nott's and Maazel's recent accounts), with amazing sonics. The tone of Zinman's interpretation doesn't sound gentle to me, at all! AND the playing of his orchestra is among the best of the cycle, definitely as good as his M3 and M6.
--Todd
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Again, these are low level recordings, and I think that too many people simply play them back at too low of a level. Turn your knobs up!
This isn't under-played, too gentle, or any of that other nonsense. In fact, the climax in the last movement pretty much blows me right out of the room. The ONLY other one I know that's remotely like that is the "live" Karajan. The forest, gentlemen, the forest.
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Again, these are low level recordings, and I think that too many people simply play them back at too low of a level. Turn your knobs up!
This isn't under-played, too gentle, or any of that other nonsense. In fact, the climax in the last movement pretty much blows me right out of the room. The ONLY other one I know that's remotely like that is the "live" Karajan. The forest, gentlemen, the forest.
Again, let me make sure I am NOT looking at trees here.
When I speak of 'reading', 'interpretation, 'sound quality', they are all related to the whole performance, i.e., the forest, not the trees.
John,