gustavmahlerboard.com
General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: gabyb on June 14, 2009, 03:15:06 PM
-
Hi everyone,
I just discovered this forum, coming over from vinyl asylum, and wanted to get some help w Mahler. I've only just started listening to him, coming on the heels of a massive immersion into classical on vinyl. So far, I have, and have listened to (partially or completely) the following:
M1 Walter's CSO
M2 Kubelik DGG
M4 Mehta's w Israeli Phil.
M5 Bernstein's and Walter's NYPO
DLVDE Walter/Ferrier
DKW Szell/FD/Schwarzkopf
Now, I've only just started reading some older posts here by Barry and Dave Hurwitz, and would love to get some help w the absolute must-have recordings, on vinyl and CD. I realize convergence in Mahler is rare, but there does seem to be agreement regarding some excellent recent performances, like Fischer's M2 and ZInman's M6, which I'm considering getting. Have at it, and it's great to have found this place right at the start. Regards,
Gaby
-
M1 Lenny/RCO/DG, Mehta/NYPO/Sony, Guilini/CSO/EMI
M2 Mehta/VPO/Decca, Klemperer/PO/EMI, Lenny/NYPO/Sony or DG, MTT/SFSO/SFSO
M3 Lenny/NYPO/Sony, Horenstein/LSO/Unicorn, Ozawa/BSO/Philips, Kobayashi/CPO/Exton
M4 Previn/PO/EMI, Lenny/NYPO/Sony, Kletzki/PO/EMI, MTT/SFSO/SFSO, Macal/CPO/Exton
M5 Inbal/FRSO/Denon, Tennstedt/LPO/EMI (live), Levine/PO/RCA, Shipway/RPO/RPO
M6 Levi/ASO/Telarc, Lenny/NYPO/Sony, Tennstedt/LPO/EMI (live), Zinman/TO/RCA
M7 Lenny/NYPO/Sony and DG, Kobayashi/CPO/Exton, Haitink/RCO/Philips (live), Schwarz/RLPO/Artek
M8 Lenny/LSO/Sony, Horenstein/LSO/BBC, Bertini/CRSO/EMI, Tennstedt/LPO/EMI, Schwarz/SSO/SSO
M9 Lenny/RCO/DG, Levine/PO/RCA, Ozawa/BSO/Philips, Bertini/TMSO/Fontac,Asahina/OPO/Firebird
DLVDE Klemperer/EMI, Barenboim/CSO, Ormandy/PO/Sony
M10 Sieghart/Exton, Litton/DSO/Delos, Rattle/BPO/EMI, Ormandy/PO/Sony
....my humble list 8).
John,
-
Here's my even humbler list:
M1-10&DLVDE Bertini/CRSO-EMI
M1 Bertini/CRSO-EMI, deWaart/MSO-Virgin
M2 Blomstedt/SFSO-London, Jansons/OPO-Chandos, Mehta/VPO-Decca
M3 Nagano/DSOB-elatus(?), Salonen/LAPO-Sony, Zinman/ZTO-RCA
M4 Levi/ASO-Telarc, Vonk/SLSO-Pentatone
M5 Shipway/RPO-RPO, Sinopoli/PO-DG
M6 Levine/BSO-BSO, Mackerras/BBCPO-BBC, Zinman/ZTO-RCA
M7 Abbado/BPO-DG, Bertini/CRSO-EMI, Halász/PNRSO-Naxos
M8 Bertini/CRSO-EMI, Gergiev/LSO-LSO, Wit/WPO-Naxos
M9 Giulini/ChiSO-DG, Lopez-Cobos/CinSO-Telarc, Mund/KSO-Arte Nova
M10 Chailly/BRSO-Decca, Harding/VPO-DG
-
As a short cut, I might suggest a budget priced boxed set. Russ recommended the Bertini, which is indeed fine overall. Personally, I would choose the re-released Lennie/Sony (Carnegie Hall) box set for the same $50-$60. I actually prefer Chailly or Lennie's DG set to either of them -- although I think both are much more expensive.
If you do a search, you may be able to find some "recommendation" threads. Off the top of my head, I'll throw a list at you:
M1: Gielen, Eschenbach, Boulez, Tennstedt/LPO (Live), Mehta/IPO (w/ Blumine),
M2: Fischer, Bernstein/DG, Klemperer/BRSO/EMI, Rattle, Slatkin, Mehta (VPO or IPO)
M3: Bernstein/Sony, Chailly, Haitink/RCOA, Jordan, Nagano
M4: Bernstein/Sony, Litton, Levine, Haitink/Berlin (DVD), Macal/Czech PO
M5: Chailly, Tennstedt (Live), Mehta, Bernstein/DG
M6: Eschenbach, Bernstein/DG, Chailly, Abbado (DVD),
M7: Thomas(LSO, not SFSO), Bernstein (DG or Sony), Levine, Gielen
M8: Sinopoli, Gergiev, Chailly, Bertini, Bernstein (DVD)
DLvdE: Haitink/RCOA, Kubelick (Audite), Karajan, Bernstein (DG), Rattle
M9: Chailly, Waart, Karajan (live/digital), Abbado (1995 Mahlerfest box)
M10: Litton, Gielen
-
M9: Chailly, Waart, Karajan (live/digital), Abbado (1995 Mahlerfest box)
Scott,
Do you mean Edo de Waart/NRPO/RCA M9th?? ???
Yeah, that's a pretty decent, sometimes excellent recording.
John,
-
Welcome to the forum! I also have frequented Vinyl Asylum. There's plenty of great Mahler on LP and CD. Let us know what you end up enjoying!
Steve
-
hi! :)
we all have mahleria here.
my list -
1-leinsdorf/boston
2-klemperer/philharmonia
3-levine/chicago
4-reiner/chicago
5-solti/chicago
6/7-no preference
8-i do not care because i don't like it
9-barbirolli/berlin
10-ormandy/philadelphia
dlvde-reiner/chicago
dkw-chailly/concertgebouw
totenfeier-lopez-cobos/berlin radio
dj
-
Thanks everyone for your recs. Here's what I've found on LP recently, and after that what I got off emusic last night.
M1 Solti/LSO, Kletzki/IPO
M4 Solti/Concertgebouw, Abbado/VPO
M5 Kubelik/DGG, Barbirolli
M9 Walter/CSO
I've listened to Kubelik's M5 and parts of Barbirolli, and still prefer Bernstein's first recording overall, he just seems to get the expressions right, to my ear. ALso, the tempo on the first movement feels too slow even on the Kubelik, certainly on the Barb. I realize it's a funeral march, but shouldn't the musical sense dictate how slow one walks? Soundwise of course the Barb is lovely, very open wide soundstage.
On mp3 I just downloaded the following:
M2 Fischer
M6Fischer
M7 & M9 Gielen
M8 Kubelik (Live)
I've only had a chance to listen to the Fischer M2 so far, just the first movement, and though I like his conducting, the sound really pales in comparison to the Kubelik on vinyl, which is to be expected I guess.
I have it on order on CD, along w the Zinman M6, so I'll get a chance to get better sound soon. I'm curious why Kubelik and Gielen seem to get less of a following here. Kubelik especially on his M2 sounds wonderful to me. The M5 is a little less lively than I'd like, and we'll see about the M8. Anyway, keep the recs coming, and thanks again,
GB
-
One more thing, which of the Gergiev's do folks like, as I can get them off emusic too. Any recent M3s I should definitely listen to, it's the only symphony I don't have a performance of yet.
-
On mp3 I just downloaded the following:
M2 Fischer
the sound really pales in comparison to the Kubelik on vinyl, which is to be expected I guess.
GB
I assume that if you are collecting vinyl, you're doing it for audiophile reasons. As such, I would suggest avoiding MP3's entirely -- and get yourself an SACD player! The Fischer on SACD is spectacular in terms of both performance and sound!.
-
On mp3 I just downloaded the following:
M2 Fischer
the sound really pales in comparison to the Kubelik on vinyl, which is to be expected I guess.
GB
I assume that if you are collecting vinyl, you're doing it for audiophile reasons.
He might be doing it for poverty reasons...
I'm not a fan of Gergiev's Mahler though have only heard a couple - of recent M3s I'd try Boulez and MTT (the latter more interventionist).
-
M9: Chailly, Waart, Karajan (live/digital), Abbado (1995 Mahlerfest box)
Scott,
Do you mean Edo de Waart/NRPO/RCA M9th?? ???
Yeah, that's a pretty decent, sometimes excellent recording.
John,
Absolutely! I think this one is sorely under-rated. To my ears, it does just about everything well. I love Waart's flexibility and choice of tempi throughout. He does a nice job of bringing out inner detail. The R-B is furious (if not quite Lennie/RCOA). The finale is thankfully a bit brisker than some others (a bit over 25' IIRC), but is not one of those 22' run-throughs that seem to miss the point. The lower brass are spectacular at the climax of the finale (in fact, much better than any of the others I've listed). I could probably list several other favorites that I missed (OK I could do that for any of the symphonies if I looked at my collection): Ozawa/SKO, Lennie/RCOA, Levine/Philly, Eschenbach/NDRSO, MTT/SFSO, Dohnanyi, Lopez-Cobos. We Mahlerians sure live in good and plentiful times!
-
Obviously, there are a lot of solid recommendations here. Equally obvious, is the fact that it's better, in the long run, to buy piece-meal (sp?) than to get a box set with everything. But that also means that you have to discover your own likes and dislikes. It takes time to do it right. It's for these reasons that I'm whole-heartily (sp?) endorsing the box set of symphonies 1 -9 (plus a very good "DLvdE") with Gary Bertini/Cologne Radio Sym. Orch. on EMI. It's a great bargain! The performances and sound quality are very consistent from start to finish. Interpretively - for a lack of a better subjective description - I would say that Bertini's conducting falls right in the middle between the extremes of Boulez and Bernstein. He has the cleanliness and fastidiousness of Boulez, coupled with the heaven-storming enthusiasm of Bernstein.
If you chose to take this route, you would only need to add the following:
Das Klagende Lied: I wouldn't pay the big bucks to get the MTT/SFSO version on the SFSO's own label. The cheaper RCA version - same exact recording! - is still available at a much cheaper price.
Des Knaben Wunderhorn: Do not side-step this work, as it will greatly enhance your understanding and enjoyment of Mahler's first four symphonies. I agree with Klaus Tennstedt's assertion that Mahler 8 is something of a throw-back to Mahler's earlier "Wunderhorn" style (but with a re-write of the "Resurrction" symphony's ending). I would seek out either the old CBS recording with Bernstein (Walter Berry/Christa Ludwig), now out on Sony, or get the much more recent Chailly/Concertgebouw one on Decca. In spite of the stellar cast, the Abbado one (DG) is a total snooze.
The three shorter song cycles: Songs of a Wayfahrer/Kindertotenlieder/5 Ruckert Lieder. Again, I would not pass these over. There are quite a few discs that have all three together. The recent Boulez/VPO one is excellent, and employs three different singers. Janet Baker/John Barbirolli (EMI) is a very solid recommendation as well.
M10 (complete): This is assuming, of course, that you're not philosophically opposed to the idea of finished "performing versions" of the 10th symphony even existing. Choosing an M10 is much more a matter of personal taste, as Mahler left very few tempo indications; dynamic markings; phrase markings, etc. The range of interpretative differences are far greater here than with most other Mahler works. Just let your own curiosity be your guide. If I had to pick just one from the many Deryck Cooke versions, it would be the Noseda/BBC Phil. one on Chandos. Others may feel differently, but I like Noseda's tempo relationships the best. I also really like the 1960's Ormandy/Philly one on Sony.
Barry Guerrero
-
Thanks Barry,
I'm actually more inclined to but piece-meal, and would love to hear what you think are the best recordings available. I've already ordered Fischer's M2 and Zinman's M6, based partly on your reviews, but would like to hear what you like for other symphonies. I regularly buy older recordings on vinyl for little money, so I figure I'll splurge here and there and get a set of more recent performances that are not available on vinyl. Thanks again,
GB
-
For vinyl recommendations, I definitely love:
--Kaplin M2, with improved sonics over the MCA CD.
--Kubelik M9 on DG
--Horenstein M3 (can't think of the label right now)
--Bernstein's M9 on DG (although hard to find cheap!)
--Colin Davis DLVDE w/ Norman Jesse (simply wow...on Phillips)
For CD and SACD...The Bertini Cycle is my top cycle. Actually the MTT Cycle is a tie for my tastes.
For M9...here is a short list of my current favorite Mahler 9's (with some comments to a few of them):
1.Simon Rattle, Berlin Philharmonic, (2008) EMI High Quality CD, Japanese pressing (the European release has dissapointing sound and doesn't do this performance justice):
The third big climax in the first movement is like a Tsunami...not over exaggerated but sounding deep, stretched and allowed to spread, like a wave rising and travelling over land for miles...the timpani that thunder after this climax are shattering...I was so happy to hear this done right. It is interesting to hear Rattle's concept develop, and great to hear how better his vision is accomplished this time around (in comparison to a broadcast recorded near the time this performance).
The detailed execution of the Landler brought out dark textures and urban-like sophistication to complicate the country landscape. I was more than impressed with the last two movements...especially the Rondo with the detail in the recording, and the Adagio reminds me of Lenny's RCO but with pristine sound...in all the movements the strings, from basses to violins are captured in all their textured richness. The counterpoint in the Rondo is illuminating because the various instruments are so well heard...great detailed natural sound in the basses and brass. There are no strange tempo indulgences in the whole work, rather Rattle's conception coincides with Mahler in spirit, therefore his interpetative choices make emotional and musical sense for the whole Symphony.
2.Robert Olson/Colorado Mahlerfest Orch/CO Mahlerfest label (2005):
Simply has everything I want in an M9...very strong climaxes, beautiful and thoughtful pacing with contrast between the various sections, great low brass, thundering timpani, a HUGE tamtam sound in the third climax but balanced with the low brass (seriously, the main climax takes my breath away). Every movement has depth and passion, with great instrumental detail and nuanced playing. The recorded sound is very natural.
3.Michael Tilson Thomas/San Francisco Symphony Orch/SFSO SACD:
In many ways this is my dream M9. Like Neumann's CPO M9, this Andante Comodo feels rather sorrowfull, quiet and resigned, with sudden upheavals of exhalation with a resistance that sounds heavy with burden. This heaviness appears to lift as each movement progresses, until the Adagio finally dissapears into nothing with no struggle into the surrender. I was really effected by the "twilight" atmosphere that seemed to manifest from the orchestra and interpretation...this could also be the sound of the hall or the sound of the orchestra in general, I'm not sure. The SFSO, however, are magnificent and a highlight of this recording. This M9 really took me by surprise...what a moving experience in every way.
I saw Hurwitz's review and agree with the 9/9 rating, although, besides the poorly heard timpani in one section of the Rondo, I feel the sound could even be a 10 rating overall, the clarity and production are very fine.
I also read Annie Ozorio's review on Musicweb, and she quoted Alban Berg's statement that the Andante Comodo "expresses an extraordinary love of this earth, for Nature; the longing to live on it in peace, to enjoy it completely, to the very heart of one's being". I agree that MTT's rendition of the Andante Comodo (as well as his execution of the whole work) relates to Berg's quote rather well.
4.Gary Bertini/Tokyo Metropoliton Symphony Orch/Fontec SACD:
All the climaxes are shattering with the low brass powerful and easily heard. The scherzo soars with powerful pastorale winds, rustic landscapes and dances with captivating strides. The Rondo has great energy, color and contrast, its twists and turns are very uplifting and exciting. The excellant sound catches every line of the Rondo as the music breathes and rotates. The Adagio is on the level of Bernstein's BSO account, and a beatitude occurs in this performance...an ultimate surrender taken with peace and bliss.
5. Zdenek Macal/Czech Phil. Orch/Exton SACD:
Macal's Prague M9 is so different to this...he has changed his concept even more in the first movement. His new M9 has superior sound, and is actually among the best sounding M9's I've heard. The lower end of the orchestra is very detailed. The first movement has never sounded so rich and dark, like a deep ocean with vast mystery. I particulary focused on the lead in and actual rendering of the 3rd Climax in the first movement...Macal stretches it out and all the parts are well heard in better balance than most recordings (and the tam tam doesn't cover up everything else), and the A flat in the horn is brilliantly shown in the foreground for once, coloring this whole passage in a new way, also highlighted by the deep dynamic range. In the other three movements his interpetation seems to suggest a letting go with each movement, or there is a feeling of more objectivity as each movement passes. In any case, the CPO are a joy to witness.
6. Karajan/BPO/DG (the Live recording):
There is a kind of "line" Karajan holds throughout the course of the performance that keeps me on the edge of my seat all the way though the work. The overall tone is mystical, objective and all the more devasting for it's unflinching progress. I've never heard anything like it, except from Karajan's braodcasts of the M9...each has this same quality, and the 1st studio recording as well).
:)
--Todd
-
I am doing it primarily for sound quality reasons, though the ability to get lots of music for very little money is another big plus. I happen to have a good supplier of used classical vinyl, and have been able to build up a nice basic collection for the price of a few SACDs, and it'sd gotten me into composers, like Mahler, whom I might not have tried in the past.
On mp3 I just downloaded the following:
M2 Fischer
the sound really pales in comparison to the Kubelik on vinyl, which is to be expected I guess.
GB
I assume that if you are collecting vinyl, you're doing it for audiophile reasons.
He might be doing it for poverty reasons...
I'm not a fan of Gergiev's Mahler though have only heard a couple - of recent M3s I'd try Boulez and MTT (the latter more interventionist).
-
I can't comment on vinyl, as I haven't purchased much vinyl in the last few decades.
Again, I would urge you not to overlook the song cycles, particularly the "Des Knaben Wunderhorn". It serves as a thematic nursery for Mahler's earlier symphonies. The Ruckert Lieder and "Kindertotenlieder" are somewhat thematic nurseries for Mahler's middle group of symphonies. In his late period, Mahler simply creates a hybrid between symphonic and song cycle structures with "Das Lied von der Erde" - perhaps his single greatest contribution to the history of music (although, the 8th seems to be catching on more and more, and is a hybrid between symphony and oratorio structures).
M1 - I like the Zinman on RCA. It reminds me a bit of the old Kubelik, and comes with a flowing performance of "Blumine" as an addendum. I'm also very much looking forward to the DVD of Fabio Luisi/Staatskapelle Dresden doing M1, which comes out June 30th.
M2 - We've already discussed the Ivan Fischer one on Channel Classics. I also like the Euroarts (Medici Arts?) DVD with Boulez conducting the Staatskapelle Berlin. Klemperer is well worth hearing in M2. Even though it wasn't issued as an sacd/cd hybrid, I do like the recent Eschenbach/Philly one (Ondine). Philly just plays fabulously on it.
M3 - I would get the Chailly/Concertgebouw one on the sacd/cd hybrid. I contains all the weight and power that the 3rd should have, but without dragging its feet along the way. There are so many that simply lose momentum in the latter movements. The DVD with Abbado/Lucern Fest. Orch. is also outstanding. The Boulez/VPO sacd/cd hybrid is quite good also.
M4 - The new Fischer M4 is great. Miah Persson is excellent. But so is Kaune on the Zdenek Macal/Czech Phil. M4 from Exton. If money is no object for you, I strongly recommend the Macal. But the Fischer is plenty good as well.
M5 - Again, if money is no object, I guess I would go with the Marcus Stenz M5 on ABC Classics. You get that from Buywell in Austrailia (or is it New Zealand?). Anyway, they're easy to find on-line. I really love the Karajan 5th as well, but be sure to get it on the DG Originals remastering. The old Barbirolli is certainly worth hearing. Chailly/Concertgebouw are real solid in the 5th as well.
M6 - We've already discussed the Zinman. I would urge you to consider getting the companion DVD, "Going Against Fate". That set comes with a "redbook" disc of the complete recording (in other words, sans SACD layer). There's a decent M6 dvd with Abbado/L.F.O. on Medici Arts as well. Boulez/VPO on DG is highly recommendable too. If you happen to stumble upon the T. Sandeling/St. Petersburg Phil. one, grab it! It has become almost impossible to find (RS label). Eschenbach/Philly is another stunning sacd/cd hybrid. It's the only performance with a dragged-out Andante movement that I can stand listening to. Again, Philly just plays the pants off of the piece.
M7 - I like the Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin one on Warner Classics. But again, if money ain't no object, you may want to consider Macal/Czech Phil. on Exton. The 7th was premiered in Prague, and the CPO sound completely at home with this work.
M8 - wait for the MTT/SFSO one. That's a work that MTT has done numerous times, and does very well. Unless he dragged tempi too much this last time around, it should be quite a show. He even took it on-the-road to Lucerne a couple of summers ago. Otherwise, try getting the Rattle one on the DVD-A disc (actually, it's a plain DVD w/o the video component). Don't bother with the plain "redbook" disc of the Rattle. If you were to pick up the Bertini box, the 8th would be one of the highlights of that set (along with the "DLvdE" with Ben Heppner/Marjana Lipovsek). If you want to hear an "event" from St. Paul's Cathedral, check out the Gergiev M8 that LSO Live just issued. Our moderator really loves it in SACD.
M9 - Karajan, of course (Karajan Gold). Also get the sacd/cd hybrid of Chailly/Conertgebouw on Decca. Perhaps my personal favorite is the decadent sounding - partly because of the rich, "chocolaty" sound of the Staatskapelle Dresden - Sinopoli one on Profil. For a single disc, I really like the Barenboim on Warner.
Das Lied - Michelle De Young/Eiji Oue/Minnesota S.O. on Reference Recordings - that one is really well sung, and the sonics are excellent. Also get the Philips "twofer" of Mahler song cycles that has the Janet Baker/James King/Haitink "DLvdE". It also comes with a really good Kindertotenlieder, sung by Herman Prey. The Ludwig/Wunderlich/Klemperer "Das Lied" on EMI is essential as well.
M10 (Cooke version) - as I mentioned, I personally like the Noseda one on Chandos best for Cooke. I'm not as wild about the Michael Gielen one as some folks are. But it does have its strong moments. I also like Ormandy/Philly (Sony), and the new DG one with Harding/Vienna Phil. If you go for the Rattle/Berlin one, try to find it on the DVD-Audio disc.
M10 (Carpenter version) - this is far more controversial, as Carpenter pushes Mahler's ouvre towards the more "expressionistic" sound world of Berg's "Three Pieces For Orch.", and "Wozzeck". I really like it, as it's much more filled-out sounding than Cooke. The Litton/Dallas S.O. recording on Delos is outstanding; fabulously played, and beautifully recorded. I like it so much that I own two copies (one as a spare back-up).
-
Now that you've found this Mahler board, I'll throw in my comments here.
I think you will find that Bernstein's various traversals of Mahler are more highly regarded here - and among Mahlerites generally - than they are among the inmates of the asylum.
There are many, many fine recordings, and I'll not argue with any of the suggestions made so far.
However, I do highly recommend the DVD set by Bernstein. People may disagree as to the relative merits of any one performance in the set compared to CDs or LPs. But there's no arguing that Lenny brought much visibility to Mahler and represented a unique voice in interpreting the music. But the reason for the DVD set is - there is an added power to the visual aspect of these performances. And the documentary features, including Bernstein's famous "Four Ways to Say Farewell" as part of the rehearsal videos for the 9th, are valuable in getting a feel for the emotional power of Mahler's music.
On vinyl -- I'm not a big fan of Haitink's later recordings of anything, but his early recordings of Mahler with the Concertgebouw tend to be better. You will find that Horenstein is probably the most controversial of the conductors of Mahler, and I imagine I'll invoke the wrath of his critics here by mentioning that some of his recordings (on vinyl of course) are worth hearing. Many of Tennstedt's recordings are also available on vinyl, as are Klemperer's and Karajan's. And as you've already discovered, I know, Walter and Mengelberg LPs are worthwhile.
Best of luck in your explorations.
-
Others have mentioned so many other fine ones on CD that I'll stick to LP choices.
I like Haitink's cycle on vinyl, which sounds quite fine on LP.
Here's some other ones I enjoy:, for both sound and interpretation:
M1: Slatkin/SLSO
M2: Slatkin/SLSO
M3: Mehta/LAPO
M4: Kletzki/Philharmonia
M5: Mehta/LAPO is my favorite on LP, but Karajan on LP sounds good, too
M6: I really don't have one on LP
M7: Either vinyl Haitink,
M8: see M6
M9: Karajan's first one, Ancerl, Haitink
Out of curiosity, what kind of vinyl rig do you have? Mine's nothing fancy. Just a Dual 1219 with a vintage Grado cart and Grado phono preamp. But it's brought a lot of music to life.
Steve
-
I have a Clearaudio Champion with a couple of upgrades, a Clearaudio Ebony arm, and Clearaudio Maestro Wood MM cartridge, running through a Heed Quasar phono stage with separate power supply.
I can't figure out how to upload pictures from my hard drive here, but this guy has one just like mine, except I have a heavier silver spindle weight, and I don't have that cool blue running light. Gotta get me one of those ----- NOT!
By the way, I bought all this stuff used on Audiogon. I never would have been able to afford anything comparable new. Poor audiophile hardware geeks. They buy stuff, plug and play in different configurations, and then get the urge to try something different.
Sometimes I feel a little guilty taking advantage of their affliction. Sometimes. A little. Well, not really. ;D
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/evanged/IMG_2556.jpg)
-
Steve, is that Dual turntable an idler wheel drive? A direct drive? I'm really lusting after a nice vintage table to set up with a mono cartridge for playing mono records. The old Garrard 301s are way too expensive. Maybe I should look at the old Duals. That 1219 is a really nice looking table.
But this guy needs to clean his records! Good grief!
(http://www.grandcanyontuberadio.com/Dual/Dual%201219%20Aug%202007%20003.jpg)
-
Don't forget the few recordings by Tabakov and Sofia PO. Actually they have a Mahler set but overall it's quite poor (Barry would agree). For me, the M7 and M9 are the absolute highlights of that set. In fact, just as good as the best ones out there. And someone mentioned the "mysterious" side of M9. This Tabakov recording is just that. The Andante is sooo ghostly!
-
Steve, is that Dual turntable an idler wheel drive? A direct drive? I'm really lusting after a nice vintage table to set up with a mono cartridge for playing mono records. The old Garrard 301s are way too expensive. Maybe I should look at the old Duals. That 1219 is a really nice looking table.
But this guy needs to clean his records! Good grief!
(http://www.grandcanyontuberadio.com/Dual/Dual%201219%20Aug%202007%20003.jpg)
Yes, the 1219 is an idler wheel. Initially, I was skeptical of it offering a good sound since idler wheels are hardly made anymore. But I think I'm on the bandwagon...they bring out more "slam" (lively bass).
That picture of the 1219 is puzzling because the screws are up. They should be screwed into the plinth. Weird.
The Clearaudio rig looks sweet. Perhaps I'll post a picture of my 1219.
I've given a lot of thought of having a second table just for mono records with a mono cart. Some say it's just as easy to have a mono swith on a receiver, but since I don't have that option, the mono cart might be the way to go. I've never heard a Garrard 301 or a Thorens 124, but they're supposed to be something very special. However, since demand is so high on those, I think the Dual is an affordable alternative. Just be mindful to get one in good working order. I've never bought from him, but there's a gentleman on another board who seems very trustworthy with a site called: http://www.fixmydual.com/. Otherwise, see what you can find on Craigslist.
Steve
-
I'm not an expert, but from what I've read and heard from those who know, the separate mono table is the way to go. At least for the older, pre-stereo mono records. Those records had larger grooves and the styli used to play back those records were made differently from the styli made for stereo and stereo-compatible records. The stylus tracking a mono groove only moved back and forth, sideways in the groove. The stereo LPs had narrower grooves and the styli moved not only horizontally, but also vertically. So they cartridges, cantilevers and styli were built differently. Another actor is arm and cartridge weight. Mono cartridges were heavier, and they were mounted on heavier arms. If you look at the weight of a mono cartridge, it is often quite heavy. The Denon 102, for example, is 13gr. Well, geez, most arms on most modern turntables are designed for cartridges weighing half that. Even a 1980s Denon turntable has to be modified to mount their own mono cartridge.
The end result is, when you play a mono record with a stereo stylus, yes you will hear sound, but the audio will sound thin and lack bass definition, and the vertical movement of the stylus can degrade the audio as well. Simply flipping a mono switch will not address any of those factors.
As I say, I'm not an expert. That's just what I've read/heard. But it sounds reasonable to me.
Yep, idler tables are all the rage now. Better bass and pacing than belts -- or so they say. I'm really happy with my table, though, so I'm going to stick with it for awhile. But a nice idler for mono -- that would be very nice and perfectly appropriate.
This guy has kept his 1219 in pristine condition. Beautiful.
(http://www.brootus.de/phono/dual_1219_3.jpg)
-
Beautiful photos, guys. Now on to Tabakov: yes, I very much like most of Tabakov's cycle. I just wish that they had been better recorded. M2 and M8 seem to be the only true duds from Tabakov, but they're also HUGE duds.
Barry
-
Thanks Barry for that list of recs, I'll make it a point to listen to the song cycles. I already have a few of them added as filler on some of my recordings, so I'll start there. Could you say a little more about why you think Das Lied is Mahler's most important contribution to the history of music? Or did you mean generally his hybrid of symphony and song cycle? Also, could you say a little more about what else there is to this hybrid other than the reuse of melodic material?
To the person lacking a mono button, you can easily turn your stereo signal into a mono signal by using 2 Y-connectors, so you go from 2-1 and then from 1-2, eliminating the second channel in the process. You can do a search on vinyl asylum for the exact details. It won't achieve any of what amphyssa was talking about, but it will eliminate a lot of extra noise, and will give a more robust, centered image.
As to my gear, I have a fairly modest Pro-ject Debut 3, which I bought to test the waters, and so far, as you say too, it's brought huge amounts of music into my life (and my family's). I'll eventually get something more serious, but at the moment the rest of my system needs a serious upgrade.
About the DVD issues: Are they different performances, or is it primarily for the visual component that people recommend them? Is it the kind of thing you watch more than a couple of times? I ask because my video store has a nice selection of classical DVDs. Also, how's the sound on the DVDs without video component?
Thanks
Gaby
-
BTW, what do you all think of the Walter/Ferrier Das Lied and KTL? Those are the ones I have for the moment, plus Barbirolli's Ruckert songs and Furt/F-Dieskau Wanderer's Songs.
-
About the DVD issues: Are they different performances, or is it primarily for the visual component that people recommend them? Is it the kind of thing you watch more than a couple of times? I ask because my video store has a nice selection of classical DVDs. Also, how's the sound on the DVDs without video component?
The DVD set does not exactly duplicate any CD set. The DVD performances include Lenny conducting the Vienna Philharmonic and other European orchestras. It pretty much corresponds to the CD set that contains performances with those same orchestras. But there are some differences. For example, in the CD set, the performance of the 8th symphony is from a performance in Salzburg. The 8th in the DVD set is the same orchestra and singers, but from a performance in Vienna. The 8th is not my favorite of Mahler's symphonies, but the one on DVD is one of the strongest performances in the DVD set.
As for audio and video quality -- these performances were recorded in the 1970s. So these will never be confused with Blu-ray. But they were remastered for release as a box set, and they are overall very good. The audio to an extent depends, of course, on the audio of your DVD player. Universal players do play a lot of different formats, but some not as well as others. But generally, these DVDs would sound about like the CDs of the same performances on most systems, I'd think. I can only say that they sound and look glorious on my home theater rig.
The other difference from CDs is the documentary features, which I do not think are available on CD.
And I would not say that the difference between the CD and the DVD is JUST the visual. That (to me) suggests the visual is not significant. I tend to disagree with that notion. I think the visual makes a big difference in our *experience* of music. Just as smell makes a big difference in our enjoyment of food or drink. For example, I can't stand opera on CD or LP. But I really enjoy seeing/hearing it live and on DVD. Just like live symphony concerts vs CD recordings. Being present for a live concert is a more "whole" experience. No matter how technically perfect the recording, a recording is not the same as being there for a live performance. Video is not the same as being there in the concert hall, but it can be a lot closer to that experience than a CD. (It can also be worse than CD, if the video is very badly filmed.)
All of this is just my opinion, of course. I like Bernstein better than some people, but I do not put him on a pedestal. Some of his interpretations can be over-indulgent. And there is much to be said for Lenny's earlier Mahler cycle with the New York Philharmonic.
If you have a TV connected to your stereo rig that would enable you to hear and see the DVDs at their best, I'd say this is a very good way to become familiar with Mahler. If you do not, and plan to stick to CDs and LPs, I would say you can pass on the DVDs. However, if you ever decide to buy the Bernstein cycle with the Vienna Philharmonic, you may want to consider the DVDs in case you ever do have a video setup later to enjoy these performances at their best. The DVD set is actually a bit less expensive than the box CD set, if you are buying new.
-
I want to back-track and try to answer some of your earlier questions. As Amphissa has pointed out, the DVDs are nearly always different performances than what gets issued on CD. The Boulez M2 with from Berlin's Philharmonie - with the Staatskapelle Berlin - is an excellent example of that (his DG recording is with the VPO). On my stereo, the DVDs generally have very good sound, and usually have several different playback options (such as 5.1 DTS).
I only know one K. Ferrier Mahler recording, and that's the famous "DLvdE" with Bruno Walter from the '50s on Decca. I've never cared for that one - even the very first time I heard it. I've never understand why that one is so highly regarded. For Walter, I prefer the '36 one with Kirsten Thorborg, or, better yet, the under-rated stereo one with the N.Y. Phil. My understanding is that the "live" Ferrier/Walter "DLvdE" is supposed to be better. Dave Hurwitz has actually said good things about the Ferrier/Walter "KTL". But I have so many good "KTL" recordings now, that I'm certainly not going to worry about Ferrier's. Generally speaking, I'm not a huge fan of "historical" Mahler recordings.
I've got to give up the computer now.
-
[The DVD set does not exactly duplicate any CD set. The DVD performances include Lenny conducting the Vienna Philharmonic and other European orchestras. It pretty much corresponds to the CD set that contains performances with those same orchestras. But there are some differences. For example, in the CD set, the performance of the 8th symphony is from a performance in Salzburg. The 8th in the DVD set is the same orchestra and singers, but from a performance in Vienna. The 8th is not my favorite of Mahler's symphonies, but the one on DVD is one of the strongest performances in the DVD set.
On Lennie's DVD set: I believe that only the DLvdE and M2 are potentially duplicates of CD issues (and Sony ones at that). As I mentioned in a recent and different thread, the ending of M2 has a completely different sound mix. The others symphonies are all done with the VPO IIRC and I do not believe that any of them have a commercial CD counterpart. Lennie re-recorded certain symphonies with the VPO for his cycle on the DG label in the 80's (the DVD's are from the 70's). Also IIRC, the DVD v. CD M8 have slightly different casts (my memory tells me that 2 soloists are different). The M8 CD "features" some of Lennie's best foot stomping.
-
Gaby,
Let me welcome you, as have others, to the GustavMahlerBoard.
I want to strongly second the recommendations and comments of Amphissa and Sperlsco regarding the Bernstein DVD set.
The sound is remarkably good, and we can not minimize the value of SEEING Bernstein conduct and experience Mahler. Watching Lenny always reminds me of the biographical comments of those who saw Mahler conduct. They were drawn into the music by the conductor's (Mahler's) dedication, confidence, enthusiasm, and pure joy in sharing with the audience his love for music.
If not soon, I hope that sometime you will get a chance to see the Bernstein DVDs.
--John H
-
I fully agree with that. The DVD of M8 with Benstein is particularly great (comes with the 7th). The 8th was perfomed in Vienna's much larger concert hall, Das Konzerthaus (high a huge pipe organ).
Barry
-
Thanks everyone,
I just got Bernstein's M4-6 DVD off ebay, for 9.99 I figured it was a no brainer. I also got Chailly's box set, as they were basically giving it away at 26.99. What do you all think of Chailly's cycle?
GB
-
I'm probably alone in my assessment of the set, but though sumptuous highlights abound, I eventually sold it.
There were a few symphonies that suited my personal preferences from start to finish, namely the 1st, 9th, and 10th. (The 9th has a very slow final movement, that sometimes puts me off, but other times seems just right.)
Of the others, I often found myself preferring other recordings (presented earlier in reply #2 to this thread) either in toto (2nd, 7th, 8th) or in particular, critical-to-me details. For example, in the 6th I prefer a more agitated heftig at the start, A/S order, and 3 hammers at the end; in the 5th I prefer a more heroic solo horn in the Scherzo; and I like a magnificent but not-that-slow conclusion to the 3rd. I'm on the fence with the 4th though I very much like the quality of Bonney's voice.
My 2¢
-
As box sets go, the Chailly is pretty good overall. The audio of the set is above average. Some of the performances are quite good.
Don't get put off by folks here. When you've heard hundreds of recordings of every symphony and have developed personal tastes for the exact way each symphony must be played in order to be satisfactory, it is impossible to find one set that has a great performance of every symphony.
I think people here would criticize Mahler himself conducting his own symphonies, because he'd have the inner movements of the 6th in an order different than they preferred, or too many or too few hammer blows, or not enough organ in the 2nd, or not enough cowbell, or too fast or too slow, with tempi too fluid or too rigid, or whatever.
Since it has good audio and reasonably priced, the Chailly set is a good way to get going. All of the performances are adequate, some are very good. Compare the performances to other recordings that you pick up. If you get the Mahler bug, as many do, you'll end up trying a lot of different recordings and eventually deciding what sounds "right" to you. Most people here have a bunch of full sets and hundreds of individual recordings, and they've decided on the 2 or 3 recordings of each symphony that they like best. But a year later, many will have a different favorite. If you drop in at that other Mahler discussion group, you'd find that their choices would be quite different.
-
Don't get put off by folks here. When you've heard hundreds of recordings of every symphony and have developed personal tastes for the exact way each symphony must be played in order to be satisfactory, it is impossible to find one set that has a great performance of every symphony.
Amphissa is quite right: I offer my opinion only for 'calibration' purposes and not to be dismissive of others.
Eventually, when one reads enough commentary from different opinion holders, one can decide whether the reviewer is a) consistent and b) aligned or not with your own opinion and biases. Some reviewers give priority to 'the sound', others to 'the concept', some to the strings, others to the percussion, some to 'the details'. Some savor 'intervention', others detest it. I cringe at every horn flub; others are clearly unaware or unfazed. I suspect that what suits me with my biases may be the antithesis of what suits someone else on this list: a recommendation from me might serve a stay-away-at-all-cost signal to someone else!
Whether intended or not, reviewers here help me decide what recordings I choose to buy if I haven't already made a decision. (Frankly, I sought out this list because I had read so many of Barry Guerrero's opinions at Amazon and found his comments generally consistent with my own preferences.) This certainly isn't an exact science: strong recommendations here and elsewhere still lead to the occasional disappointing purchase. However, I'm glad and fortunate to have many more opinions and observations to consider. Lastly, as it has been stated elsewhere, we are truly spoiled with the vast and increasing number of alternatives.
Enjoy your Chailly set!
-
The Chailly set is very good. No doubt.
-
Just thought I'd mention, the store I bought the Chailly set from still has some, on ebay, they didn't put Chailly's name on the listing tiltle for some reason. Anyway, for 26 bucks, I figure it's a great deal (item#300326593543) . No connection to the seller whatsoever. I'll let you know how I like it when I get it. I really like the Zinman M6, btw, though I've yet to make it to the last movement.
GB
-
I really like the Zinman M6, btw, though I've yet to make it to the last movement.
GB
;D I can say that about almost every recording of the 6th ;D