Author Topic: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?  (Read 25547 times)

Offline John Kim

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Re: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2010, 07:28:53 PM »
Well, it's true that Thielemann has his problems with Mahler:

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/03/mahler-cycle-and-uncomfortable-silence.html


For those who didn't read the fascinating post by Jens Laurson posted by GL, here's the reason Thielemann gave of his problem with conducting Mahler:

"Mahler’s music lends itself most to those conductors” Thielemann reflects, “who know how to hold back, who are good at understatement. That doesn’t exactly accommodate my conducting style; I’ve not been terribly successful at that yet. The music of Mahler is already so full of effects, if you are tempted to add anything, you only make it worse. I admire those conductors who achieve that certain noblesse—which is what I desire to achieve, eventually. Not always to enhance something. I’m currently trying to wean myself off that in Strauss, actually…”"

I don't quite follow his argument. As Tennstedt once said, Mahler's music requires "exaggerations". Understatement kills Mahler's music. I know Mr. Thielemann is known for unusual treatments of German repertoire and that's why I hoped you will tackle Mahler someday. Sounds like he thinks Mahler should be conducted a la Szell.

John,

Offline John Kim

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Re: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2010, 07:45:25 PM »
How about

Lenny/NYPO M10 Carpenter ed.?? ;D ;D :D

Oh, we also need Abbado's DLVDE someday.

John,

Offline GL

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Re: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2010, 08:07:52 PM »
Concerning Thielemann's interview, John wrote:

"I don't quite follow his argument."

Perhaps, Thielemann means something like what Jansons says in the following interview:

http://mahler.universaledition.com/mariss-jansons-on-mahler/

When asked: "Is there a danger of overpowering Mahler?" (Min. 7:04) Jansons replied recalling his father saying: "Never put, please, sugar to honey: it's too sweet".

The mathematical relationship between the timing of different sections of a movement I have experienced in his M7 and M3 (this last live at the Concertgebouw last February, 4, an highly rewarding experience), is one of Jansons' conducting/interpreting features I particullary enjoy, because he gives me the feeling of the unfolding of a clear and transparent musical discourse.  



Offline waderice

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Re: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2010, 08:51:24 PM »
How about

Lenny/NYPO M10 Carpenter ed.?? ;D ;D :D

John,

Bernstein went on record as saying that beyond the 1st movement Adagio, anyone's attempt to "complete" or to make "performing versions", are or would not represent an authentic statement as being "Mahler" due to the incompleteness of various sections of the remaining movements needing to be merged as valid movement entities, plus the orchestration.  That's why we have no recording or known performances by him of the remaining movements, save the Adagio.

Wade

Offline John Kim

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Re: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2010, 08:57:42 PM »
How about

Lenny/NYPO M10 Carpenter ed.?? ;D ;D :D

John,

Bernstein went on record as saying that beyond the 1st movement Adagio, anyone's attempt to "complete" or to make "performing versions", are or would not represent an authentic statement as being "Mahler" due to the incompleteness of various sections of the remaining movements needing to be merged as valid movement entities, plus the orchestration.  That's why we have no recording or known performances by him of the remaining movements, save the Adagio.

Wade
I know, but it would have been great if he had tackled and recorded a complete M10th, nonetheless. Would it not?

John,

Offline Don

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Re: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2010, 11:18:06 AM »
As to the above, my sentiments exactly. I would have loved to have heard his take on the final movement of the completed M10.
M10 Fanatic!

Offline John Kim

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Re: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2010, 05:52:53 PM »
I also want

Ozawa/BSO or SKO DLVDE & a full M10th

I once heard Ozawa's live DLVDE with BSO. It was the most beautiful and the most detailed performance I ever heard.

John,

Offline Amphissa

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Re: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2010, 03:41:07 AM »
 
I can think of many many *many* conductors who I wish had never recorded Mahler, and quite a few who I wish had stopped with one recording of each symphony.

 :-X
 
"Life without music is a mistake." Nietzsche

Offline stillivor

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Re: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2010, 08:09:16 AM »
I'd like to know which are the recordings that should never have been made.

Can barely think of a combination that wouldn't have something in it; but then every person has their interesting side.

The first few that occur to me.

Furtwangler in the symphonies.
Oscar Fried in decent sound.
Mitropoulos in the 7th.
Ernest Borsamsky in the rest after his rather good no.1
I thoroughly enjoyed Mark Gorenstein in the 5th [he conducts the Russian State]; so him in the rest.
Toscanini and cantelli in any/all.
And Mravinsky and Silvestri.
Horenstein in 2 and 5; both exist but haven't made it to commercial recordings yet.

Walter and Klemperer when middle-aged.

And for real fantasy stuff, Mahler himself conducting orchestras.

And me. [I'm pretty good; in my head. lol].


    Ivor

Offline waderice

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Re: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2010, 02:54:10 PM »
The first few that occur to me:
Furtwangler in the symphonies.
Oscar Fried in decent sound.
Mitropoulos in the 7th.
Ernest Borsamsky in the rest after his rather good no.1
I thoroughly enjoyed Mark Gorenstein in the 5th [he conducts the Russian State]; so him in the rest.
Toscanini and cantelli in any/all.
And Mravinsky and Silvestri.
Horenstein in 2 and 5; both exist but haven't made it to commercial recordings yet.
Walter and Klemperer when middle-aged.
And for real fantasy stuff, Mahler himself conducting orchestras.

Ivor

Furtwangler likely knew about the symphonies, but for career (and likely racial as well) reasons, never had any desire to conduct them.
It would have been good if Fried had waited until electrical recording came about to delay his recording of M2.  However, with his death in 1940 or 41, we wouldn't have gotten any Mahler recording by him in decent sound, considering he emigrated to the Soviet Union.
M7 is one I believe I quoted earlier that Mitropoulos should have recorded.
Can't comment on Borsamsky, Silvestri or Gorenstein, though Silvestri might have been interesting.
Toscanini and Mahler disliked each other intensely when the former came to New York about 1908 (I think) as a Metropolitan Opera conductor; it only portends that he should have disliked Mahler's compositional output as well.  With Toscanini later in life taking on Cantelli as protege, he would certainly have communicated his dislike for Mahler's output to Cantelli; therefore no Mahler recordings (much less performances) by either man.
Can't comment on Mravinsky, and don't know if there is any documentation on his like/dislike of Mahler.  Maybe Mravinsky's student, Yuri Temirkanov, could say whether or not Mravinsky liked/disliked Mahler.  Temirkanov certainly does, as I've heard him conduct M2 live.
Someday, we'll have M2 and M5 by Horenstein (likely after our lifetimes?).
The 1938 M9 by Walter was conducted by Walter when he was middle-aged.  About the only significant Mahler document by him from that period.  No one wanted to perform Mahler during those times for career, racial, political, aesthetic, and economic reasons.
I think Mahler would have liked to record his works once the technology had reached a decent point where most every instrument in the orchestra could have been heard (i.e., electrical, no acoustic recordings, and no instrumental substitutions or deletions).  Those piano rolls he recorded are likely his preference as to how he wanted those particular pieces to go (at least from tempi and dynamic viewpoints).

Wade

Offline chris

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Re: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2010, 05:52:25 PM »

Furtwangler likely knew about the symphonies, but for career (and likely racial as well) reasons, never had any desire to conduct them.



Furtwangler conducted various Lieder as well as the first four symphonies plus DLVDE in the 1920s.   

Offline waderice

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Re: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2010, 08:22:35 PM »
Furtwangler conducted various Lieder as well as the first four symphonies plus DLVDE in the 1920s.   

Got any details about the performances, if available?

Wade

Offline chris

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Re: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2010, 08:59:56 PM »

Got any details about the performances, if available?

Wade

Not first hand!   ;)


Here's the site where I got the specifics: 
http://www.furtwangler.net/conductor.html#perform

The two pdfs "The Learning Years" and "The Glorious Period" list every concert he did....there's more Mahler than I would have expected.


Offline stillivor

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Re: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2010, 12:34:08 PM »
Regarding performances after Mahler's death and before the centenary, here's a partial list of conductors of Mahler performances:-

  In the US,

      Stokowski
      Arthr Bodansky
      Karl Muck
      Rodzinski
      Koussevitsky
      Erno Rapee
      Ormandy.

In the USSR

      Fritz Stiedry
      Albert Coates
      Talich
      Rakhlin
      Mravinsky
      Anosov
      Eliasberg

In the UK

      Boult,
      Karl Rankl
      Fistoulari
      Basil cameron
      Henry Wood

plus Konoe in Japan, who recorded the first ever 4th.

Lastly, Oscar Fried performed the 9th with the BBCSO in 1935. Come to think of it Webern did the 6th with the BBC in the early 30s.


All that information is taken from The Mmahler Companion, ed. Donald Mitchell and Andrew Nicholson.

So there wasn't a thorough lack of Mahler conductors in that period.


     Ivor

Offline Michael

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Re: What Conductors Do You Wish Had Recorded Which Symphony?
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2010, 08:41:08 PM »
I'd love to see a Rattle/Berlin M6...if his M9 is any indicator, it should be a smashing (no pun intended) success.
Michael

 

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