Zinman ZTO M9m samples

[John Kim]

My copy has been shipped today!

John,

[Michael]

I ordered my copy from Grooves-Inc via Amazon.com...can't wait to hear it! 

[John Kim]

Somebody on a Korean classical music website left a brief but but stimulating review. It goes something like,

"Zinman's Mahler cycle has always left something to be desired, but this time he hits the ball out of the park. Without a doubt I think this is his greatest Mahler recording so far. Only Das Lied von der Erde remains now."

Wow...

John,

Another rave review just popped up. It goes something like,

"Although the beginning of I. is somewhat unsettled the performance gathers strength and focus as it moves along. The great Adagio that ends the symphony is given such a beautiful treat here. The middle movts. are pretty good too."

John,

[John Kim]

Todd,

Do you agree that the beginning of I.  is somewhat unsettled?

John

[vvrinc]

Todd,

Do you agree that the beginning of I.  is somewhat unsettled?

John

Unsettled in I? Try also the beginning of IV. The string entrances are liked scared children entering a dark room during a thunder storm.

As a whole, it's a bloodless performance of the score. The very opening of IV, for instance, has all the personal involvement of a small store owner cleaning the outside window of his shop before opening. For heaven's sake, even de Waart--never known as "Mr. Passion"--and his Netherlands bunch emote more.

[John Kim]

Todd,

Do you agree that the beginning of I.  is somewhat unsettled?

John

Unsettled in I? Try also the beginning of IV. The string entrances are liked scared children entering a dark room during a thunder storm.

As a whole, it's a bloodless performance of the score. The very opening of IV, for instance, has all the personal involvement of a small store owner cleaning the outside window of his shop before opening. For heaven's sake, even de Waart--never known as "Mr. Passion"--and his Netherlands bunch emote more.

By now we should all know that "passion" is not an integral element of Zinman's Mahler cycle. I'd rather look for 'lucidity', 'transparency', 'careful balance', things like that. But thank you for reporting your (first) impression. No wonder the Japaneses are all split about this one.

I own the de Waart recording and like it very much, despite the somewhat underwhelming I.

Back in early 80s he led SFSO in one of the best M9th concerts I ever recall. It was a near perfect M9th in my book. Too bad he had to record the cycle in Netherlands instead.

John,

[vvrinc]

John,
The de Waart cycle has a few winners in it. Not first choices but mid-to-top contenders, at least for me. I also wish he would have had a shot at Mahler with SF, an orchestra of tremendous potential when they are not being asked to pirouette along with MTT's self-conscious mannerisms. I just revisited a few of SF's recordings with Blomstedt (some Strauss and the Nielsen Symphonies) which reminded me of the inherent greatness of that band.

A thought I have had about the Zinman Mahlers as I've collected each installment, is that maybe he is conducting for what the orchestra can give him. I don't believe the Tonhalle, for their many great qualities in music of other composers, has the sound and/or personnel for Mahler. Their strings are consistently weak-sounding as every recording has been tweaked towards the brass and winds, and in the 8th, the organ, percussion and choir. Even in the brass and winds sections they can't compete with the likes of NYP, BPO, BSO, SFO, CSO, RCO, to name but a few. With the bar for performance and instrumental execution having been raised so high by so many previous and current conductors/orchestras, Zinman's recordings--for all the "lucidity, transparency, and careful balance" you hear in them--are, for my ears only, merely good efforts by a good orchestra in state-of-the-art sound.

For me, "revelatory" is also an important component necessary to justify any Mahler recording appearing in the saturated Mahler-symphony market although, I must admit, I end up buying everything that appears out of desperate curiosity and hope for enlightenment. With only Litton to compete with, I sincerely hope that the Tonhalle's Mahler-Carpenter 10th will turn out as "something special." Since it's so heavily dependent on orchestral execution and brilliance, I have my doubts. Now, if only San Francisco would tackle that score with (insert favorite baton wielder here). With my luck, it'll be Ashkenazy or Neeme Jarvi, with whoever is unfortunate enough to let them in the building, conducting something else they are sight-reading.

[John Kim]

I finally received my copy.

One thing I immediately noticed is that the recording sound, whether on the SACD or CD layer, is distant and rather claustrophobic. The depth may have been enhanced but compared to all other previous recordings in the cycle it is definitely 'narrow'. Overall, it sounds similar to Tennstedt's studio recording albeit that the dynamic range is not compromised. I had a hard time adjusting to this change because I was so used to the open, close-up sonics in the previous installments. Maybe turning the volume will help but I have not tried it yet.

Regarding Zinman's interpretation, it has mellowed down over the years (how could it not?) but he keeps the architecture of the great opening movt. tight and well controlled. About 7'35" into the music right after the first climax Zinman does an unusual thing in the percussion; whereas the timpani is marked pp in the score, he has it pounded more like ff. Very odd but it worked fine with me. Perhaps he was using a different edition? Who knows.

The orchestra plays very well most of the time but I felt that their ensemble was limited compared to say, VPO or RCO; the woodwinds are not as prominent as they could be (I wanted to hear them screaming more), and horns were occasionally buried under the blaring trumpets. OTOH, I liked Zinman's second movt. a lot. Here he keeps the opening section moving at a fleeting tempo and yet doesn't forget to differentiate the tempo between the slow and fast passages. The RB is just fine, lacking the last degree of wilderness and uncontrolled energy. Clocking at over 28 min. the Adagio is very slow but in the last as well as intermediate pages Zinman finds nostalgia, reconciliation, and a deep sense of departing the world. Throughout the movt. the Zurich strings shine giving everything they could for their conductor. That said, they will not be mistaken as Berlin or Viennese strings!

All in all, a worthy continuation in Zniman's ongoing Mahler cycle, slightly marred by the sonics.

John,

[Michael]

I must admit John I'm rather disappointed by that review, nothing personal obviously.    I know you were looking forward to this one and I was hoping I'd read a rave review from you...you probably have the best ears among us!    Ah well, such is life...I really wanted this one to be top-notch though.

I've thought the sonics in Zinman's M5 and M6 were distant...is this M9 more distant than that?

[John Kim]

I must admit John I'm rather disappointed by that review, nothing personal obviously.    I know you were looking forward to this one and I was hoping I'd read a rave review from you...you probably have the best ears among us!    Ah well, such is life...I really wanted this one to be top-notch though.

I've thought the sonics in Zinman's M5 and M6 were distant...is this M9 more distant than that?

Zinman's M5 & M6 are distant sounding? Far from it, compared to the Ninth.

PL make no mistake. This is a solid M9th, but I expected more ... having heard Zinman's fabulous live concert with Aspen Festival Orch.

John,

[John Kim]

Michael,

Do you own Abbado's first go at the symphony with VPO?

I have a feeling that you'd be pretty satisfied with the recording as it provides the young conductor's raw instinct and fierce energy in a most amazing way imaginable. The playing is phenomenal, the recording quality hard to beat (I said the sound is one of the very best DG has ever engineered).

John,

[John Kim]

I was right about the low level recording.

At a higher level, it sounds better focused, and better balanced with orchestral details coming out more vividly.

And Zinman's organic logic and patient development with the symphony have become more convincing this time around.

Still, I find the woodwinds are hardly audible in the climatic passages of I. (no screaming!!) and the final breakdown around 20 min. not powerful enough.

Next time I will crank up the volume higher.

John,

[Leo K]

I stand by my original thoughts. I first listened to this with the volume up, and was amazed at the performance.  I like the sonics because I feel like I'm in the hall, and I'm not too close to the orchestra.  For me, all of Zinman's Mahler cycle sounds like this, it's one of the features I really like about this cycle.

Also, the beginning of the first movement is anything but unstettled...I hear confidence from the orchestra...I hear a strong sense of self.

 

--Todd

[Michael]

John,

No, I do not have that Abbado M9.

Mine should hopefully be coming in today or tomorrow...I can't wait!  ;-)

[Zoltan]

At a higher level, it sounds better focused, and better balanced with orchestral details coming out more vividly.

Still, I find the woodwinds are hardly audible in the climatic passages of I. (no screaming!!) and the final breakdown around 20 min. not powerful enough.

John,

I was wondering, having M1, M5, M6 and M8 and reading other people's thoughts, that the recordings are made with microphones in the audience rather than on the podium, if that might be the reason for the hardly audible woodwinds in climactic passages?

I'm sure, everyone of us knows, that in each concert hall, different seats emphasize different sounds from the orchestra, and some recordings choose the conductor's podium as microphone position. I've seen on this forum different preferences, but it seems to me unrealistic (without tinkering) to have an audible clarinet when the trombones are blasting away (not even outside of Chicago).