Author Topic: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017  (Read 51892 times)

Offline Prospero

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Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #105 on: June 30, 2017, 08:41:17 PM »
And for what it is worth, Alma's version.

http://www.omifacsimiles.com/brochures/images/mahler_ad_3.jpg

What might her "Nicht schleppen!" mean?  She is quoting Mahler from a little further on. She told Mengelberg that the movement  was an orchestra song, and he constructed a version of the words in his score as you can see in the previous link.

http://www.omifacsimiles.com/brochures/images/mahler_ad_3.jpg

Mahler includes more than six different descriptive tempo markings in the movement. Only the very opening and the passage at bar 78 are marked Sehr lansam. At bar 39 he has Etwas fliessender als am Anfang  (somewhat more flowing than at first), followed by Nicht schleppen (do not drag).

So the idea that the whole movement is one tempo-Sehr langsam or molto adagio- is not what the score says.


Offline barryguerrero

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Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #106 on: June 30, 2017, 11:47:16 PM »
Obviously. But any tempo modification has to be in relation to the initial tempo. You can't start out quarter note 60, then jump to quarter note 120 at the development. Granted, that's an exaggeration, employed in an effort to make the point. But you know what I mean.

In addition, at Tempo I, look at the tempo modifications there. Before we come to the end, he clearly is asking us to enter a state of stasis (no visa or passport is required).

I have to believe that "molto adagio" means exactly what it says. Look at those markings in relation to the tempo markings for the slow movement of M6. No comparison!

Again, 9 minutes will work perfectly fine for me (I prefer 9.5).
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 11:56:11 PM by barryguerrero »

Offline Prospero

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Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #107 on: July 02, 2017, 10:49:50 PM »
Then Nicht schleppen also means exactly what it says. If it were stasis, why Mahler include this? How would Nicht schleppen be stasis?

Your example of 60 vs. 120 makes no sense at all as you admit. But clearly there are many tempo variations in the movement,which suggests tempo movement and variety and not stasis. The first marking is "Sehr langsam."  Molto adagio comes in after a retard. Then fliessen and Nicht schleppen and others. There are many different tempo adjustments, not violent but still clearly varied and suggesting movement. So, there is not one unvarying tempo.

And the song underpinnings of the movement seem quite clear. Look at Mengelberg's writing in song text. He was a good deal closer to Mahler than you or I.

Why or where is Mahler static? That I don't understand.

But ever expanding listening and response.

Best,

Tom in Vermont

Offline barryguerrero

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Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #108 on: July 03, 2017, 01:37:58 AM »
After the double-bar "Tempo 1 (molto adagio)", Mahler writes both "rit." and "zoegernd" at rehearsal figure 4, then "noch langsamer" at bar 88. These are all modifications upon "molto adagio". The final "draengend" doesn't appear until 8 measures before the very end. A state of 'stasis' is in that passage before the final "draengend". OF COURSE, the harp keeps plucking away through those bars - just not quickly.

Before the 'development' which begins at rehearsal figure 2, Mahler does write "estwas draengend" (bar 28), followed by "fliessand" for the second half of bar 30, followed almost immediately by "zuruckhaltend". That's a speed-up, alright, but it's for a short duration.

Yes, there is a "nicht schleppen" near the beginning at bar 10, but it's slightly tempered by the words, "etwas flussiger als zu Anfang". That 'anfang' is marked "sehr langsam". We're still not talking about M6's "andante moderato".

At figure 2 itself, Mahler  does write "fliessender", followed by "etwas draengend" four bars later, leading to "fliessand" going into a big, double-bar key change at measure 60. He then asks "espressivo" at bar 64 - which could mean anything in terms of tempo - followed by "zuruckhaltend" at bar 68, which in turn is followed by "molto rit." at bar 71. But the "Tempo 1" that appears six bars later is back to "molto adagio".

There are more measures under the jurisdiction of a slow marking than there are 'faster' ones. None of the 'faster' ones are ANY faster than "fliessend" (or "fliessender"). And the 'song' business is, to me, totally irrelevant. "Um Mitternacht", "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen", der Tambourgs'ell" and "Wo did schonen Trumpeten blasen", are songs by Mahler that go quite slowly, are they not?

Mahler was a precise enough and great enough composer, that if he had meant something other than "sehr langsam" and "molto adagio", then that's what he would have written.  Yes, there are tempo modifications - of course there are.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 03:45:21 AM by barryguerrero »

Offline Prospero

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Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #109 on: July 03, 2017, 05:38:56 PM »
Differences of reading. It seems to me that at least half of the movement is marked by fliessend and etwas drängend plus one Nicht schleppend. A "molto rit." before rehearsal #3  is a notable marked change in tempo during the return to
Tempo 1, which must show that the previous section is not molto adagio, and then even a "Drangend" eight bars from the end. And under the last bars we read "attaca Rondo. Finale"

Much to reflect on.

Thanks for the observations and views.




Offline GL

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Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #110 on: July 04, 2017, 07:14:29 PM »
Jumping into this Adagietto discussion late:

1. There is NO correct tempo for any piece of music. All that matters is how musical the chosen tempo is. There are many things to consider: quality of the performers, the relationship to tempos of surrounding movements, the acoustics in the hall, what time of day it is. Not a joke. Last year I was conducting four performances of the Nutcracker ballet. Several people, including a mad ballerina, mentioned that my Saturday matinee performance was noticeably quicker than the preceding Friday evening reading. Biorhythms and all that.

2. Regarding Walter's recording. Bear in mind that the old 78 rpm records could only hold 4.5 minutes per side and if he needed to get the Adagietto on two sides, quicker tempo it is. Historical recordings are always tricky in this way - the performers are slaves to the recording technology.

3. We know for a fact that performance timings have slowed down over the last 100 - 150 years. Erich Leinsdorf discussed it at length. So did Lorin Maazel - and he knew a few things about slow tempos!

4. As a rule, I like performances that move along...no draggy tempos for me. Hence, some of my favorite recordings come from conductors noted for picking things up: Paray. Monteux, Solti, Reiner, Markevitch, Jarvi. Too many conductors let tempos, and with it interest, flag. Maybe in a live performance a 15 minute Adagietto could be spellbinding - at  home it's simply boring.

My weird experience with perceived time: when I listen to a recording of a concert that I attended live, it almost always seems to me that the recording is slower than what I have experienced live.

Apropos of the Adagietto. The performers are not always slaves to the recording technology. It is true for the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata recorded by Harold Bauer in 1924: he played it as if it were written in 2/2 time (and actually he found out that there was an old edition in which it was printed in 2/2 time), resulting in a flowing (and fascinating) performance of 4 minutes and 56 seconds (one side). But it is not, it cannot be the case of the Adagietto. Since it was impossible to squeeze it on one side without cuts, this means that it must occupy two sides. And two sides means almost 10 minutes of music (and during the 1930s, sometimes even more). Thus, if they had wanted, Mengelberg and Walter would have done it long, but they did it short because, as I have written, that's the tradition stemming from Mahler himself. Remember that Mahler's tempi were between 7 and 9 minutes. There can be no doubt that he wanted it short.

In Europe, during the 1950s, it was still done short in the live and studio recordings of Kempe (Archipel; 9.32), Kubelik (Tahra; 9.24), H. Rosbaud (ICA; 8.53- a fabulous recording of the Fifth, never mind the imperfect playing of the orchestra), R. Schwarz (Everest; 7.31). It was in USA, with Bernstein and Mitropoulos, that the Adagietto began to be played very slow, and I think that it was so played because it was its meaning that started to shift from "love song" to "(almost) dirge" (in fact Bernstein played it at funerals). During the 1970, especially after Visconti's Death in Venice, the "long-playing" tradition prevailed and established itself firmly. Towards the 1990s the "short-playing" tradition started to slowly (pun intended) re-affirming itself. And so the big feud began, paralleled only by the bloody feud between the Sixth Symphony's Scherzo-Andante and Andante-Scherzo factions... (By the way, I am part of the Scherzo-Andante faction)

About Mahler's indications. He certainly intended that the piece is to be played with a lot of rubato. And, I repeat it again, Mahler was known (and criticized) for playing adagios rather flowingly; this means his concept of "slow" could have been faster than ours. A clue could be found in the slow movement of the Fourth Symphony. He wrote Poco Adagio for the G major theme, than viel langsamer (a lot more slower - not just slower, but a lot more!) for the E minor theme. Nowadays, many conductors take the beginning too slow and then fail to make that difference heard as requested.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 12:11:45 PM by GL »

Offline GL

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Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #111 on: July 04, 2017, 08:07:46 PM »
Back to the main topic:

Mahler's First with Markevitch and the Gewandthaus Leipzig:

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Mahler-1860-1911_000000000019272/item_Symphony-No-1-Igor-Markevitch-Gewandhaus-Orchestra-1982_7999713

I think this is a remastering of a Tahra release of around 2000. I do not know it. Anyway, Markevitch was no slouch and recorded in 1982, at least the sound might be good.

Offline barryguerrero

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Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #112 on: July 06, 2017, 05:19:34 AM »
"My weird experience with perceived time: when I listen to a recording of a concert that I attended live, it almost always seems to me that the recording is slower than what I have experienced live"

.    .    .   which is precisely why Fritz Reiner allegedly said that recordings should go a bit faster than the live performances.

Offline GL

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Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #113 on: July 07, 2017, 07:31:30 AM »
Another one, this time from Czech Republic.

Libor Pešek's complete cycle with the Czech National Symphony Orchestra:

http://www.cnso.cz/EN/news/429/mahler_____complete_symphonies_.html

Gustav Mahler

Symphony No. 1 in D major "Titan" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AhM4-UjrwU)
Symphony No. 2 in C minor "Resurrection"
Symphony No. 3 in D minor
Symphony No. 4 in G major
Symphony No. 5 in C sharp minor
Symphony No. 6 in A minor
Symphony No. 7 in E minor
Symphony No. 8 in E flat major
Symphony No. 9 in D major
Symphony No. 10 (Adagio)

Libor Pešek - conductor
Czech National Symphony Orchestra
Eva Urbanová - soprano (2, 8); Mieko Sato - soprano (4); Anna Chierichetti, Doriana Milazzo, Kateřina Kněžíková – sopranos (8); Dagmar Pecková – mezzo (3); Kateřina Jalovcová - alto (2, 3, 8); Yvona Škvárová - alto (8); Marcello Nardis – tenor (8); Gianfranco Montresor – baritone (8); Ondrej Mráz – bass (8); Czech Philharmonic Choir of Brno (2, 8); Kühn Children‘s Choir (3); Kantiléna Children‘s Choir (8)

Recorded in Rudolfinum Prague, Municipal House, and Studio CNSO No. 1 "Gallery"
Recording Director: Sylva Smejkalová; Balance Engineer: Jan Kotzmann; Engineer Assistant: Čenda Kotzmann
Producers: Jan Hasenöhrl & Chikari Fujii
Coproduct recording by Victor Entertainment, Inc. & Czech National Symphony Orchestra

http://www.cnso.cz/EN/shop.html

WARNING

I knew about the Czech National Orchestra through their recordings of Fibich's works and they seemed an average professional orchestra, but what I heard playing through this cycle surprised me as I have never been surprised before. Alas, in the negative.

I thought that the worst Mahler cycle was Svetlanov's, but this one is a serious contender. They often play like amateurs. The horn section is especially appalling: when things get difficult, they seem to hide, they seem to run for cover.

Compared to the rest, Symphonies 1-3 are decent, and the alto in the Second has a beautiful voice.

The Fourth is a total disaster, perhaps the worst performance ever committed on disc. Being among my most beloved symphonies of all the times, I succeeded in arriving to the end of this performance only through an almost physically painful effort. As it is the case for the Third, they do not even used an update edition of the score (they used the same one, pre-critical edition played by Bernstein in his first recording of the Fourth).

The other symphonies are below the standard of decency that should be accorded to this music, and to playing music in general. There are even things that I find hard to explain. For example, there is a (slow!) passage in the first movement of the Seventh where the orchestra literally fall apart and I wonder why nobody thought about a make-up session to correct that mess.

Apart from the first three symphonies, Pesek fares a bit better in the Fifth and the Ninth, the two symphonies he has previously recorded, but the general impression that remains at the end of this cycle is the one of having gone through a nightmarish voyage.

This cycle will certainly remain an enormous stain on the otherwise excellent conducting career of Pesek.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 12:28:51 PM by GL »

Offline GL

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Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #114 on: July 18, 2017, 06:50:20 PM »
The second release in the ongoing Düsseldorfer Mahler-Zyklus will be the Fourth:

Soprano: Hanna-Elisabeth Müller

Düsseldorfer Symphoniker

Adam Fischer

http://www.wz.de/lokales/duesseldorf/kultur/adam-fischer-vierte-symphonie-von-mahler-auf-cd-1.2439398

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/gustav-mahler-symphonie-nr-4/hnum/7509793

Offline barryguerrero

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Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #115 on: July 19, 2017, 06:42:21 AM »
Oh boy, Fischer vs. Fischer!   :D

Offline GL

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Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #116 on: July 20, 2017, 11:36:16 AM »
HAPPY BIRTHDAY MAESTRO GIELEN!

Today, July 20 2017, is Michael Gielen's 90th birthday and SWR-music celebrated it by releasing a box with his complete Mahler recordings for SWR as Volume 6 of the Gielen-Edition:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/michael-gielen-edition-vol-6/hnum/7443586

The box comprises the complete cycle previously released by Haenssler, plus the reference recording of the Tenth Symphony in Cooke's performing version, the complete Lieder collection of Das Knaben Wunderhorn, a questionable Das Lied von der Erde (questionable because it was put together from different performances), some unpublished recordings (Rueckertslieder, Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen) and a DVD with a performance of the Ninth.

This is not Gielen's complete Mahler discography. In fact, apart from the content of this box, there also exist a Fifth (Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester Saarbrucken; live recording 1971; Altus; an exciting performance in, alas, limited sound); a Third (Radio-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin; live recording; Altus); a Sixth (Radio-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin; live recording 1984; Altus; I slightly prefer this one to his remake for Haenssler); an excellent Seventh (Berliner Philharmoniker; live recording; Testament); an Eight (Opernhaus-und Museumorchester Frankfurt; live recoding; Sony); a Ninth (SWF-Sinfonieorchester Baden-Baden; 1990; Intercord).

Offline GL

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Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #117 on: July 23, 2017, 06:30:34 PM »
I knew that Minnesota & Vänskä recorded the Sixth last autumn and I read about the recording of the Second, so I was surprised to find out that the first Mahler release of Minnesota & Vänskä will be the Fifth!

https://smile.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-Minnesota-Orchestra/dp/B0711CKS48/ref=tmm_acd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1498125409&sr=1-3

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Mahler-1860-1911_000000000019272/item_Symphony-No-5-Vanska-Minnesota-Orchestra-Hybrid_7982750

https://www.amazon.fr/Symphony-No-5-Sacd-G-Mahler/dp/B0711CKS48/ref=tmm_acd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1498125591&sr=1-10

It could be interesting for the orchestra and the sonics provided by BIS. As for Vänskä's contribution, I did not find his Fifth with Hong Kong very special:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_yxolaffpo

Hurwitz nailed Vänskä to his repsonsibilities:


Artistic Quality: 4
Sound Quality: 9


This has got to be the most expressively sterile, emotionally neutral performance of Mahler’s Fifth yet captured on disc. I might call it a “CD from Hell” except that it’s not even that interesting. To be sure, the symphony has tripped up many a fine Mahler interpreter, but Vänskä hasn’t yet earned that distinction, and evidently he has a way to go before he does. Let’s start at the beginning.

The first movement is a true funeral march. Literally. It’s dead. The opening threnody sounds benumbed, which is fine if the music wakes up at that first, hysterical outburst, but it doesn’t. The ensuing wind band passage (figure 12) has never been played more metronomically. “Stormily agitated” and “With the greatest vehemence” hardly describe the tightly controlled start of the second movement. You can practically hear the players counting eighth notes. Its second subject, which Mahler marks to be played in the tempo of the opening funeral march, is far too slow, and the chattering accompaniment in the woodwinds is louder than the tune. So it goes.

The scherzo is a mess of illogical tempo relationships. As in the previous movement, where Mahler’s score says “don’t drag,” Vänskä tends to hurry forward; where it says “don’t rush,” he slams on the brakes. The first trio section features exaggerated portamentos, the very opposite of the gracious, relaxed spontaneity that Mahler had in mind. Those little breath pauses (“Luftpausen”) at figures 17 and 26, so exciting when observed, get ignored entirely. The Adagietto is slooooooooooowwww–some twelve and half minutes. I’m not a fan of those who insist that it be played as quickly as it was done originally, or sometimes is again today (around eight minutes). It’s really a question of contrast and proportion, but this version is lethal.

In the finale, Vänskä achieves an impressive degree of contrapuntal clarity, but at a droopy speed and with a mechanical, sewing machine approach to articulation that makes the fugal episodes (i.e. most of the movement) tedious. As with his pretty dreadful Sibelius cycle with this same band, it’s clear that he has turned into one of those interpretive micromanagers who fiddles around with the music just because he can. It’s a depressing transformation in an interpreter whose prior work often revealed interesting ideas presented idiomatically, in context. We can only hope that this is just a phase.

As for the Minnesota Orchestra, the playing is technically excellent, but faceless. You can appreciate the fine solo horn, the woodwinds playing with their bells up, or the precise string ensemble, but– whether the result of Vänskä’s expressive straightjacket or a simple dearth of personality–it comes across as cold and contrived. Mahler’s Fifth contains some of the most gut-wrenching, intense music in the symphonic repertoire. Its moods swing from the blackest despair to uninhibited giddiness. You won’t hear them in this abstract, clinical exercise in podium control.

Hurwitz has been too generous: I would give 3. But I do not think Vänskä has become so bad a conductor. I am listening to his cycle of Beethoven's Piano Concertos with Sudbin and he has plenty of splendid ideas, he keeps unearthing interesting details and Beethoven's scores sound fresh, sometimes almost new. My impression with his Mahler is that Vänskä is not really interested in this composer, as if he has now started conducting his music for reasons related to a conductor's career nowadays. Klemperer, who was a truly great conductor, did not like the Fifth and never conducted it. That's what a honest artist should do. The thought of a Second or a Third treated like the Fifth makes me wish this Minnesota cycle will be aborted or land in the hands of another conductor, a conductor who likes Mahler's music, understands it and knows how to show it through his/her interpretations.


Offline GL

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Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #118 on: July 31, 2017, 10:30:05 AM »
Courtesy of Capriccio, a new recording of Das klagende Lied is going to be released in the, alas, usual hybrid version, i.e. with the Waldmaerchen from the original three movement version. It is not specified, but I think it is the Waldmaerchen with the initial 1899 revisions, when Mahler still thought to keep it. When he decided to drop the movement, he stopped reworking it:

Das Klagende Lied : Cornelius Meister / Vienna RSO, S.Schneider, T.A.Baumgartner, Kerl, Erod

https://www.amazon.de/Das-Klagende-Lied-Schneider/dp/B0741ZGZTN/ref=sr_1_1?s=music-classical&ie=UTF8&qid=1501495261&sr=8-1&keywords=B0741ZGZTN

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Mahler-1860-1911_000000000019272/item_Das-Klagende-Lied-Cornelius-Meister-Vienna-RSO-S-Schneider-T-A-Baumgartner-Kerl-Erod-etc_8093964

Since we have a lot of excellent recordings of the revised version, it would be better to concentrate a bit more on the true first (1878-1880) version, which present a peculiar orchestration and even some bitonal effects (orchestra on stage and off stage in different keys).

Offline GL

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Re: Forthcoming & New Releases 2017
« Reply #119 on: August 01, 2017, 10:38:24 AM »
I remember having read somewhere an Erwin Ratz's sarcastic comment about Keilberth's conversion to Mahler just after the fall of the Third Reich and I knew of his First and Fourth, but I did not know he conducted Das Lied von der Erde and even the Eight:

http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Mahler-1860-1911_000000000019272/item_Symphonies-Nos-1-4-8-Das-Lied-von-der-Erde-Keilberth-SKD-Cologne-Rso-Vso-Bamberg-So-etc-4CD_8088928

If I were not too afraid of the audio quality of this kind of releases, I would be curious to listen to what he makes of the Eight.

 

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