Author Topic: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)  (Read 26859 times)

Offline GL

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Re: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2017, 09:46:06 AM »
In my opinion, a serious collection of complete cycles (box-sets) and Lieder should contain (in alphabetical order):

"MANDATORY" (= that must be known, the essentials):

SYMPHONIES:

Bertini (EMI)

Bernstein 1 (Sony, the last Japanese remastering) and Bernstein 2 (DG)

or

Bernstein 1 (Sony, the last Japanese remastering) and M1, M5, M6 of Bernstein 2 (DG)

Chailly (Decca)

Gielen (Haenssler Classics)

Levine's (Sony), Kubelik live (Audite) and Klemperer's are not complete, but they should stay in the above mentioned company. Among other cycles not yet complete, Ivan Fischer's and Manfred Honeck's should be too, even if they will not be completed.

M10 (Cooke):

Chailly (Decca)

Gielen (Haenssler Classics)

Rattle 1 (EMI)

Sanderling (Berlin Classics)

LIEDER:

Gesellen-Lieder, Kindertotenlieder, Rueckert-Lieder & Lieder von der Jugendzeit:

Janet Baker (mezzo-soprano) (EMI & Hyperion)

Wunderhornlieder:

Bernstein 1 (Sony)

Chailly (Decca)

Stenz (Ohems)

Das Lied von der Erde (with contralto):

Klemperer (EMI)

Kubelik (Audite)

Haitink (Philips)

(yes, I like Janet Baker very much)

Das Lied von der Erde (with bariton):

Kletzki (EMI)

Das Klagende Lied (definitive version):

Haitink (Philips)

Das Klagende Lied (Waldmaerchen + definitive version):

Chailly (decca)

Tilson-Thomas (label of the SFSO)

Das Klagende Lied (1880 version):

Akiyama (Exton)

Nagano (Warner, not well recorded as the Akiyama's)

"OPTIONAL" (= that are worth to be known, and could expand the horizons of a collection):

SYMPHONIES:

Inbal 1 (Denon; not as Inbal 1, which it was my first complete cycle and which I own with every disc signed by the maestro himself, but I enjoyed Inbal 2 too)

Neumann (Supraphon)

Ozawa (Philips)

Segerstam (Chandos - discontinued)

Tennstedt (EMI)

Tilson-Thomas (label of the SFSO) and Zinman (RCA) could be part of the list of the "optionals". Among not complete cycles, Kondrashin (Melodya) is rather impressive.

Das Lied von der Erde:

Nezet-Seguin (London Philharmonic Orchestra label)

Eiji Oue (Reference Recordings)

M10 (Cooke)

Dausgaard (Seattle Symphony Media)

Rattle 2 (EMI)

Das Klagende Lied (Waldmaerchen + definitive version):

Rattle (EMI)

Sinopoli (DG)

LIEDER:

Wunderhornlieder, Gesellen-Lieder, Kindertotenlieder, Rueckert-Lieder:

Boulez (DG)

Rueckert-Lieder:

Sasha Cooke (mezzo-soprano) (Yarlung Records)

NOTE: I don't know the Wakasugi cycle. I know only the M6 of the Rinkevicius. The Pesek cycle I will know soon.

Sorry, I forgot the Piano Quartet:

Members of the Prazak Quartet & Sachiko Kayahara (Praga Digitals)

Daniel Hope & Friends (DG)

Offline AZContrabassoon

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Re: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2017, 03:13:35 PM »
A list of MANDATORY recordings that doesn't include a single one of Bruno Walter's contributions? But does include Klemperer? Walter knew and worked with Mahler a lot longer than Klemperer ever did and we can hope that Walter absorbed some of Mahler's ideas and personality. We'll never know. Every time I listen to the fifth in old, crackly mono from NY I am pleasantly surprised just how thrilling, driven and "modern" that recording sounds. It's really rather interesting comparing Walter & Klemperer in recordings of the 2nd, 9th, and DLVDE - so different yet both so vital.

Offline GL

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Re: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2017, 04:01:27 PM »
A list of MANDATORY recordings that doesn't include a single one of Bruno Walter's contributions? But does include Klemperer? Walter knew and worked with Mahler a lot longer than Klemperer ever did and we can hope that Walter absorbed some of Mahler's ideas and personality. We'll never know. Every time I listen to the fifth in old, crackly mono from NY I am pleasantly surprised just how thrilling, driven and "modern" that recording sounds. It's really rather interesting comparing Walter & Klemperer in recordings of the 2nd, 9th, and DLVDE - so different yet both so vital.

I think there has been a misunderstanding. As I specified before jotting it down, I considered complete and almost comple cycles of symphonies. I added Das Klagende Lied, Das Lied von der Erde, the Cooke's M10 and Lieder separately because they are too often (and I thik wrongly) not included in the boxes of the cycles (despite being so varied, Mahler's opera omnia is very consistent, compact and organic) and they should really be known alongiside the symphonies.

In a list of single, important releases, Walter would pop out for sure, as would Karajan and many others.

As for the fact that Walter's Mahler must be more reliable than Klemperer's because of the many years spent by him as Mahler's assistent, friend and confident, we can't be entirely sure. Walter conducted only one of Mahler Symphonies (the Third), during Mahler's lifetime and it did it after Mahler had left Vienna. So, we do not know what Mahler thought of Walter's Mahler. According to contemporary witnesses that had attended Mahler's and Walter's concert, they differed in style and approach, Walter being milder, less provocative, less extreme. On the other hand, Berlin critics during the 20s, considered Klemperer the true heir of Mahler, he reminded them of the same approach to conducting of Mahler. Moreover, especially during the 30s, the conservative Walter had tried to impose Mahler's music as the official music of the new, postwar Austria, that is to say the music in which the new nation could identify itself, the music in which it was mirrored the nation's image of the glorious past and its authoritathive legacy brought in the present. The present of the Austria in the 30s was the catholic, right-wing government of Schussnig, a friend of Walter, who was present in his official capacity at the concert for the 25th anniversary of Mahler death. So, Walter tried to make sound Mahler's music less disruptive, more conservative.

Let's not forget he was a prominent public figure: the Nazi wanted to put him away and he saved his neck because he was in Amsterdam during the Anschluss.

Consider also his attitude towards Mahler's symphonies: he never conducted the Sixth, the Seventh he conducted once. He performed regularly Das Lied and the Ninth above all for a sense of duty, because they had been entrusted to him, Das Lied in particular. After he fled Austria, apart from the first recording of the Fifth (which I like), he conducted above all M1, M2 & many M4s and refused the offer to record an entire cycle. Conductors, let's say, more "progressive" (like Mitropoulos) had no problems in conducting M3, 5, 6, 7, that is to say the more modernistic symphonies.

Another example of unreliability of assumptions about master-disciple relationship is represented by Oscar Fried. He was the first to record the Second Symphony at the beginning of the 20s. The first time he conducted it, he went to Vienna to study it at the piano with Mahler. Mahler was pleased. In Berlin at the dress rehearsal, Mahler was however very surprised by the fact that Fried seemed to have forgotten all that was said. In fact, he did the opposite! Mahler protested and Fried had to sort of improvise a new approach during the actual concert (the same concert in which Klemperer was conducting the offstage orchestra and made his first encounter with Mahler). Now, how can we be sure that the M2 he recorded in the 20s is a M2 that Mahler would approve?

Let's think about the example of Klemperer once more. As mentioned above, during Klemperer's most successful years in Germany, people who attended concerts of both Mahler and Klemperer considered Klemperer the true heir of Mahler. We also know that, in Prague, Klemperer attended all the rehearsal of Mahler's Seventh Symphony. He witnessed Mahler's work with the orchestra, his labours in revising and polishing the score, he even sat at the same table for dinner every night, listening to all he had to say about music and many other things. It's then fair to assume that he knew very well the Seventh and what Mahler wanted to achieve in performing that symphony. Sixty years after, Klemperer recorded the Seventh. It is a performance more than a bit strange, nevertheless once in while I like to listen to it because it fascinates me, but, that said, just considering Klemperer's tempos, we can be sure this is not how Mahler conducted it.

It is simply not in the nature of great artists with strong personalities like Walter and Klemperer just to reproduce the work of their mentor, they must have it done their own way and we have to judge their work above all for what it is, for its own merits, for what they want and have to say for themselves, not just for the kind of human relationship they enjoyed with Mahler.

(Sorry for the length of the post.)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 10:12:11 AM by GL »

Offline barryguerrero

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Re: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2017, 05:51:45 PM »
I certainly concur with your last paragraph. I think it's doubtful that Mengelberg's recording of M4 is a duplicate of Mahler's own Amsterdam performance(s), no matter how many marks he may have made into the score.

Offline GL

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Re: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2017, 10:19:25 AM »
I certainly concur with your last paragraph. I think it's doubtful that Mengelberg's recording of M4 is a duplicate of Mahler's own Amsterdam performance(s), no matter how many marks he may have made into the score.

You can read minds. It occured to me that I had forgotten addressing the case of Mengelberg and when I came back to add a few lines about him, I found you had just did it for me. It remains to say that his scores are also the source of stories (like the one related to the Adagietto) that he likely made up.

While I regret that we lack more recordings by Walter, Klemperer, Mengelberg and the other guys in Mahler's band, on the other hand I admire them for their honesty, for sticking on their principles. I mean, Walter did not share the nihilistic vision of the Sixth and he stayed away from it; Klemperer for two times decided to conduct the Sixth and for two times he removed it from the program because he was tortured about the Finale: he kept wondering if that movement was a failure or if it was he that was not able to understand and master it. So, I regret not having an apocalyptic M6 from Klemperer, but I prefer his attitude to the one of today conductors that think they can conduct everything, as if it were just a mechanical/technical matter.

Apropos of Mengelberg. I thought that he recorded only M4, M5, IV and the Gesellen-Lieder, but I read somewhere that, during his Swiss exile (1945-1951), he recorded also M5, I. It would have been much more interesting if he had recorded all the First Part of M5, but I am nevertheless intrigued. Alas, I have not been able to locate that recording, it is as if it never existed. Does someone know something about it?

Offline waderice

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Re: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2017, 12:57:15 PM »
Apropos of Mengelberg. I thought that he recorded only M4, M5, IV and the Gesellen-Lieder, but I read somewhere that, during his Swiss exile (1945-1951), he recorded also M5, I. It would have been much more interesting if he had recorded all the First Part of M5, but I am nevertheless intrigued. Alas, I have not been able to locate that recording, it is as if it never existed. Does someone know something about it?

If you don't get an answer here, try going over to the Mahler Group at Facebook, if you're on FB, and ask this question.  I'm pretty sure there are many more people there who can hopefully provide you with an answer.

Wade

Offline Freddy van Maurik

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Re: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2017, 03:51:54 PM »
Apropos of Mengelberg. I thought that he recorded only M4, M5, IV and the Gesellen-Lieder, but I read somewhere that, during his Swiss exile (1945-1951), he recorded also M5, I. It would have been much more interesting if he had recorded all the First Part of M5, but I am nevertheless intrigued. Alas, I have not been able to locate that recording, it is as if it never existed. Does someone know something about it?

If you don't get an answer here, try going over to the Mahler Group at Facebook, if you're on FB, and ask this question.  I'm pretty sure there are many more people there who can hopefully provide you with an answer.

Wade

You might try and contact Frits Zwart, Mengelberg's biographer. If the recording exists, he will know of it. I've never heard of it, though.

Offline GL

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Re: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2017, 11:28:20 AM »
Thank you for the replies & suggestions. Having remembered the orchestra he conducted for his last recordings made in Switzerland, through google I was able to find the details of the release, but not any trace of it in any shop:

WOLFGANG AMADEUS MOZART - Piano Concerto No. 23

FRANZ LISZT - Piano Concerto No. 1

FREDERIC CHOPIN - Piano Concerto No. 1 (first movement)

GUSTAV MAHLER - Symphony No. 5 (first movement)

FELIX MENDELSSOHN - A Midsummer Night's Dream Overture

ANTON BRUCKNER - Symphony No. 7 (Adagio)

L'Orchestre du Vacherin Mont d'Or
Willem Mengelberg

Tahra

Offline Freddy van Maurik

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Re: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2017, 07:10:11 AM »
Thank you for the replies & suggestions. Having remembered the orchestra he conducted for his last recordings made in Switzerland, through google I was able to find the details of the release, but not any trace of it in any shop:

WOLFGANG AMADEUS MOZART - Piano Concerto No. 23

FRANZ LISZT - Piano Concerto No. 1

FREDERIC CHOPIN - Piano Concerto No. 1 (first movement)

GUSTAV MAHLER - Symphony No. 5 (first movement)

FELIX MENDELSSOHN - A Midsummer Night's Dream Overture

ANTON BRUCKNER - Symphony No. 7 (Adagio)

L'Orchestre du Vacherin Mont d'Or
Willem Mengelberg

Tahra

Hi GL,

I contacted Frits Zwart (he and I are members of the board of the Dutch Gustav Mahler Society) and he pointed out that recordings of these works by Mengelberg only partly exist. There is no Bruckner-recording by Mengelberg. A complete list of Mengelberg's recordings can be found here: http://www.willemmengelberg.nl/?q=discografie

Furthermore, the name of the orchestra is very probably not real. Vacherin Mont d'Or is a kind of Swiss cheese... The ClassicsToday-article by David Hurwitz, in which this orchestra is mentioned uses a picture of this Tahra-issue:

"Mengelberg -- Previously Unissued Historic Recordings"
BEETHOVEN:  Symphony No. 3 in E Flat, Op. 55 Eroica (Mar. 5, 1942?).  Symphony No. 2 in D, Op. 36 (Mar. 21, 1943).  Symphony No. 8 in F, Op. 93 (May 13, 1943).  BRAHMS:  Symphony No. 1 in C Minor, Op. 68 (April 13, 1943).
Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orch/Willem Mengelberg, cond.
TAHRA TAH 391-393 (3 CDs) (F) (ADD) TT: 49:28 / 67:16 / 47:23

From Mahler 5th, he only recorded the Adagietto, as you undoubtedly know.

Cheers!
Freddy

Offline GL

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Re: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2017, 06:44:21 PM »
Hi GL,

I contacted Frits Zwart (he and I are members of the board of the Dutch Gustav Mahler Society) and he pointed out that recordings of these works by Mengelberg only partly exist. There is no Bruckner-recording by Mengelberg. A complete list of Mengelberg's recordings can be found here: http://www.willemmengelberg.nl/?q=discografie

Furthermore, the name of the orchestra is very probably not real. Vacherin Mont d'Or is a kind of Swiss cheese... The ClassicsToday-article by David Hurwitz, in which this orchestra is mentioned uses a picture of this Tahra-issue:

"Mengelberg -- Previously Unissued Historic Recordings"
BEETHOVEN:  Symphony No. 3 in E Flat, Op. 55 Eroica (Mar. 5, 1942?).  Symphony No. 2 in D, Op. 36 (Mar. 21, 1943).  Symphony No. 8 in F, Op. 93 (May 13, 1943).  BRAHMS:  Symphony No. 1 in C Minor, Op. 68 (April 13, 1943).
Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orch/Willem Mengelberg, cond.
TAHRA TAH 391-393 (3 CDs) (F) (ADD) TT: 49:28 / 67:16 / 47:23

From Mahler 5th, he only recorded the Adagietto, as you undoubtedly know.

Cheers!
Freddy
[/quote]

It looks like I have slipped upon a piece of cheese... Anyway, thank you so much Freddy for contacting Frits Zwart and for the interesting & informative post!

It's always a pleasure to deal with people around here.
Luca

Offline Freddy van Maurik

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Re: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2019, 10:17:51 AM »
In my opinion, a serious collection of complete cycles (box-sets) and Lieder should contain (in alphabetical order):
[...]

Hi all,

I just rediscovered this topic and am happy to say that my collection includes all but two of these mentioned by GL: the Segerstam-cycle and the Rückert-Lieder by ms. Cooke (whom I don't know of at all, to be honest). Should I try and get hold of these?  ;)

Cheers!
Freddy

Offline David Boxwell

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Re: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2020, 10:12:45 PM »
Also close, if he'd lived another 5-10 years: Mitropoulos (no 2, no 4, no 7).

Offline erikwilson7

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Re: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2020, 06:46:45 PM »
In my opinion, a serious collection of complete cycles (box-sets) and Lieder should contain (in alphabetical order):
[...]

Hi all,

I just rediscovered this topic and am happy to say that my collection includes all but two of these mentioned by GL: the Segerstam-cycle and the Rückert-Lieder by ms. Cooke (whom I don't know of at all, to be honest). Should I try and get hold of these?  ;)

Cheers!
Freddy

Hi Freddy,

I’m only familiar with part of the Segerstam cycle (2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 10 adagio) and I can tell you it’s good, but a bit extreme. They all have a very mystical and olympian quality to them. The M2 is titanic and expansive and has one of the best endings on disc. The M3 is good not great, IMO. The M7 is 88 minutes but is intelligently conducted and played incredibly well. The M8 is also long, and has a unique final peroration. The M9 is one of the longest on disc(s) as well, but finely executed. The M10 adagio is just under 30 minutes. All of what I mentioned can be listened to on Spotify except for the M2. The set is quite difficult to find now, and pretty expensive as a whole.

Erik
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 06:53:57 PM by erikwilson7 »

Offline Last_Evolution

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Re: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2020, 08:12:56 AM »
All symphonies by Orchestre National de Lille, Alexandre Bloch on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/ONLille/videos

Offline Last_Evolution

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Re: A List of Mahler's Complete Cycles (updated on March 16, 2017)
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2020, 12:50:07 PM »
Macal/CPO is almost complete (except M8).

 

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