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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Wunderhorn on May 04, 2007, 04:41:00 PM
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I would either vote Bertini or Gielen. What do you all say?
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Overall, the old Bernstein set still reigns. The second best set would be either Bernstein's DG or Bertini or Kubelik.
John,
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I like Bernstein Sony, but Bertini Rules !!! 8)
Vatz
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I've got my vote in for the Bernstein DG set. Chailly would be a very close second, with Gielen, Inbal, Bernstein/Sony, and Bertini all just behind in third. Honorable mention goes to Ozawa, Segerstam -- both missing from your poll. Other box sets missing from the poll (perhaps deservedly so) are Waart, Various/Brilliant, NYPO Box, Tabakov.
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In order, I'd go: Bertini; Berstein I; Chailly; Inbal; Berstein II; Segerstam; Gielen; Haitink I; Kubelik, . . .
. . . Solti/CSO would be dead last. But if Decca were to put together a Solti box that used his earlier LSO Mahler recordings, along with his earlier Concertgebouw M4, I'd rate that much higher.
Barry
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I voted for Chailly, but I quite like Bertini and Inbal as well. It just comes down to the number of favorites from each set. For Chailly, I don't think I could do without his recordings of M8 and M9. I'm very fond of the Inbal M5, and the Bertini M3 as well.
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. . . Solti/CSO would be dead last. But if Decca were to put together a Solti box that used his earlier LSO Mahler recordings, along with his earlier Concertgebouw M4, I'd rate that much higher.
Barry
If I could mix and match Abbado, I would give him a third-place or honorable mention if I could substitute his recent M3 and M9 for his earlier ones. I also slightly prefer his BPO M6 over the CSO one (both are good). I love both M7's -- so it's toss up there. I'm also not certain whether the actual box set has his his CSO or BPO M1 and M5. I prefer the CSO ones in both instances, although none of them are really among my favorites.
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Bernstein's Sony/Columbia set does it for me. Also really like his DG set and the Bertini.
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I only have four box sets, Bertini, Bernstein Sony, Bernstein DVD, Kubelik.
I voted for the Kubelik box.
Not that I judge it best, I don't listen that way. But the Kubelik performances are the ones I end up litening to most often.
I've added the Audite LvdE to the set (Janet Baker!!) and switched the Audite live 8th for the one in the box.
db
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What about Edo de Waart/Netherlands Phil. Orch. set? I have this box and love it. It may not be the best but is very consistent both i.t.o. conducting and sound. The M3rd, M6th, M7th, and to a lesser degree, the M9th would all rank highly with any other versions.
John,
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The best is of course Neumann/CPO - it has best M3, very very good M6, M8 is at least as good as Bertini and it has lot of other very good. Btw this set was re-released last year (I don't know if there were made any improvements in sound.)
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Posted by John Kim: What about Edo de Waart/Netherlands Phil. Orch. set? I have this box and love it.
I'd love to hear that set as I've always heard it was a real sleeper. However, it is quite rare and hard to find these days.
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Yeah, the De Waart is pretty darn good. He's like Haitink, only a bit less dour - more optomistic sounding. I saw De Waart conduct quite a bit of Mahler in S.F. In general, I enjoyed De Waart's Mahler more than MTT's.
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I saw de Waart conduct the 7th in Minneapolis many years ago...a wonderful event and experience.
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In S.F., De Waart did the 7th just shortly after Haitink/Concertgebouw played it here on tour. I have to tell you, the De Waart one was every bit as the Concertgebouw one, which didn't disappoint in the slightest. I remember De Waart having outrageously prominent deep bells at the symphony's final peroration.
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The Bertini box is an obvious choice because of constantly good playing and very good sound. However, I got the Neumann box later and whenever
I hear it (or parts of it), I like the these fine, underestimated performances more.
So if I had the chance to select three boxes, I would click Bernstein (Sony), Neumann, Bertini (in chronological order). But I here I decided to select Neumann.
Michael
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Yeah, I should have mentioned the Neumann set. I really love the sound and style of his M7, but just wish the last two movements were a bit faster. I really like the Czech Phil. in Mahler.
Barry
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Best Mahler Boxset Currently Available? Difficult to answer as “best” has different meanings for each of us.
I find Sinopoli’s cycle the most appealing and clever but I would not say that it is the best. To me the most consistent is Abbado but I vote for Bernstein CBS. In spite of the sound, not bad but quite improvable, every symphony is rendered whit the utmost intensity. Only the Fifth is disappointing. Bernstein DG cycle in spite wonderful orchestras and sound is spoiled with Lenny's manierisms.
I find that Bertini is being overestimated. I love his Mahler, even I have wonderful memories of live concerts with Fifth and Seventh, but how many of his symphonies are a first choice?
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"but how many of his symphonies are a first choice?"
I don't feel that that's the point. The point is that Bertini's cycle is incredibly consistant in terms of interpretive approach, sound quality, and orchestral execution. For me, his 8th is definitely my first choice, and his "DLvdE" is darn near a first choice. The Sinopoli box is waaay more hit and miss - mostly misses in my book.
Barry Guerrero
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I think one of the reasons the Bertini cycle is so appreciated is the value. When it comes to box sets, "what you get for the money" is a large part of what makes it appealing. I bought the Bertini set for, like $30 because i had an Amazon bonus credit. Many of the laudatory reviews mention what a great value the set is. Considering its affordability, the quality of the sound and the over all quality of performances, it is difficult to not recommend the cycle.
Even if some of the recordings may not be my first choice, I could certainly live with all as my only Mahler if someone took all my singles away.
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To some extent I agree with each of the last three posts. The reason that I do not personally select the Bertini as my first or second choice is that only two or three of the performances are definite first tier favorites of mine (M8 for sure, and most likely the DLvdE, M4). However, every performance is at least good -- there is not an unenjoyable one in the batch. For that reason, I would probably make it my first recommendation to someone that wanted ONLY ONE box set of Mahler (if such a strange person really existed ;D ). Conversely, I do not like the M2 or M7 in the Chailly set, eventhough it is my personal 2nd choice overall. Eventhough the Lennie/DG is my personal favorite, I would not recommend it as someone's only Mahler set because there is so much Lennie in it -- and the Bertini is much more straight forward, without lacking any bit of personality.
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I appreciate your thoughts regarding Bertini Eighth, but I must say that I am not fond of this recording. Not only it is marred by a hideous tenor –just listen to his barking in Höchsten Herrscherin der Welt; the tempi are quite inconsistent, whit unjustified shifts, and only the Chorus Mysticus is really first class.
But do not think I hate Bertini’s Mahler. In a scale from 0 to 10 this is the marks I give to each symphony in his cycle.
GM1: 8
GM2: 8
GM3: 8
GM4: 7
GM5: 9
GM6: 8
GM7: 9
GM8: 7
GM9: 8
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I appreciate your thoughts regarding Bertini Eighth, but I must say that I am not fond of this recording. Not only it is marred by a hideous tenor –just listen to his barking in Höchsten Herrscherin der Welt; the tempi are quite inconsistent, whit unjustified shifts, and only the Chorus Mysticus is really first class.
But do not think I hate Bertini’s Mahler. In a scale from 0 to 10 this is the marks I give to each symphony in his cycle.
GM1: 8
GM2: 8
GM3: 8
GM4: 7
GM5: 9
GM6: 8
GM7: 9
GM8: 7
GM9: 8
Here's how I would rank Bertini's set on a scale of 0-10.
Even though Bertini's set is a great buy in terms price, the main appeal for me is in the performances and sound not price first,
you can buy the Maazel set very cheaply, but would you want to ?
Also I don't think it's a coincedence that my favorite performances are also the Live recordings.
M1: 10
M2: 7
M3: 8
M4: 8
M5: 9
M6: 8
M7: 9
M8: 10
DLVDE: 10
M9: 9
M10: 9
Vatz
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you can buy the Maazel set very cheaply, but would you want to?
Yes I would...and I have :)
--Leo
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you can buy the Maazel set very cheaply, but would you want to?
Yes I would...and I have :)
--Leo
Leo,
I apologize, I know peoples opinions on music are very subjective, and very dramatically.
And I actually do like Maazel's M4. I just like Bertini a lot more!
Sincerely,
Vatz
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you can buy the Maazel set very cheaply, but would you want to?
Yes I would...and I have :)
--Leo
Leo,
I apologize, I know peoples opinions on music are very subjective, and very dramatically.
And I actually do like Maazel's M4. I just like Bertini a lot more!
Sincerely,
Vatz
No problem at all!!! :)
--Leo
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...hideous tenor –just listen to his barking in Höchsten Herrscherin der Welt;
LOL ;D I always enjoy witty criticisms.
For my money, I agree that the singing on the Bertini M8 is not my favorite aspect of it, but I do like the playing of the orchestra and most of Bertini's conducting. One aspect of the conducting that I do not like is the way he rushes the penitent women section. Conversely, I know that BG loves this aspect of the recording. To each his own.
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I was not suggesting that one buy the cheapest set, BTW. I just mentioned that you do get a lot for the money with the Bertini Mahler set. If the performances were sub-par, a good price would be meaningless. Personally, I think I'd like Gielen's set, based on the reviews I've read and samples I've heard. But the asking price is just too steep. And it's not like I'm hurting for another cycle. I'd have to get a nice bonus this year to justify it.
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I can only read what you all have to say, for I have few box sets, and probably wouldn't know where to begin to make worthwhile suggestions anyway. My general preference is for live recordings. In applying that preference to box sets, I suppose I would select the NYPO Mahler Broadcasts set. In it you get a variety of conductors and, if the performance was during the asthma/flu/cold season, there is a lot of audience participation. ::) I believe it is the only recording commercially available of Sir John Barbirolli's 1959 colorful treatment of the Third Movement of M 1--it remains a mystery how he persuaded the NYPO to play like slightly tipsy street musicians. It's a must-hear.
The other box set with live recordings is the Haitink Kerstmatinees collection, which doesn't seem to be available in this country--but you can order it from the Netherlands. The box is worth having by itself, for it has a photo of Haitink with an expression on his face and a clearly active gesture with a fist. Have you seen it, Barry? ;D
Instead of getting the box sets, I usually end up acquiring the contents piecemeal, either before they were issued as a set--as in the case of Chailly--or after the set is no longer available.
. & '
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I have the Bertini, Kubelik and Haitink sets. I got the three of them a few months ago. I have not listened at any great length to the Haitink set yet. On balance I prefer the Kubelik to the Bertini set. The Bertini are consistently good and the M5 is special, however, for me the Kubelik set has a few exceptional recordings most notably the First, Fourth and the Sixth.
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Bertini, closely followed by Bernstein and Chailly, always bearing in mind the exceptional single performances that stand alone
Cheers!
John H
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If we could include a DVD box set, I'd have to rank Bernstein as number one.
I know--I'm just a sentimental fool who loves to see Lenny emote!
Cheers,
John H
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In the Bertini set i think the best performances are: 1-5-9-DLVDE.
I think 2-3-6 rather weak, as sound and orchestral execution.
The Inbal set is one of the most balanced performances: great sound, excellent playing, idiomatic but not idiosyncrating.
Recorded in the same venue and in a small( for such a project) period.You can find it very cheap. It's a bargain.
This set is also a favorite of the esteemed Henry de la Grange.
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How come nobody mentions Edo de Waart/Netherlands Phil. Orch./RCA cycle?
I like most of the recordings in the set, especially M5-M8 very much.
John,
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It's a very good box. As you probably remember my having mentioned before, I wrote a very positive review of the De Waart box for the Japanese In Tune (http://In Tune) magazine, sometime back in the latter '90s
Barry.
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How come nobody mentions Edo de Waart/Netherlands Phil. Orch./RCA cycle?
Probably because it has been out of print for so long, few people have heard it. I'd like to hear it. I've heard nothing but good about it.
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How come nobody mentions Edo de Waart/Netherlands Phil. Orch./RCA cycle?
Probably because it has been out of print for so long, few people have heard it. I'd like to hear it. I've heard nothing but good about it.
True. This set is probably the most consistently interpreted, played, and recorded Mahler cycle, next to the Bertini set. de Waart's readings are very solid with no particular interpretive quirks to complain about, and his orchestra plays in decent sound with firm bass lines. The sound is as good as any with natural sound stage and warm acoustics. I have a set released by a local company in Netherlands (not the RCA set) which I bought at around $50.00 including S&H. The M3rd, M5th, M6th, and M7th are excellent. These are the best in the set. When played on a very equipment the M9th sounds pretty darn good too.
John,
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. . . Solti/CSO would be dead last. But if Decca were to put together a Solti box that used his earlier LSO Mahler recordings, along with his earlier Concertgebouw M4, I'd rate that much higher.
Barry
Barry, I couldn't agree more. I think that the Solti/LSO M1 & M2, the Concertgebouw M4 and perhaps the CSO M5 (not sure about that one, and the Solti/CSO M8 perhaps) are superb Mahler renditions. The CSO M1 & M2 are fine interpretations too. I don't understand why Solti's Mahler is generally held in such low regard.
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Posted by alpsman:
The Inbal set is one of the most balanced performances: great sound, excellent playing, idiomatic but not idiosyncrating.
Recorded in the same venue and in a small( for such a project) period.You can find it very cheap. It's a bargain.
This set is also a favorite of the esteemed Henry de la Grange.
FWIW, mine is the sole vote for the Inbal set. I only have three of the sets on the list, and like Inbal's the best. Plus, you get a complete 10th in the Inbal set.
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No argument from me on the Inbal set. I rank it pretty close to my other favorites: Bernstein/DG, Chailly, and Gielen. I haven't pulled out some of the performances for a few years, but my memory tells me that the M3, M4, M5, M6, M8, and M9 are in or near my first tier of favorites (I've only listened to his M3, M5, and M9 recently, though), and I still liked the M7, M10, and DLvdE. Heck, this set gets points just for HAVING a good M10 and DLvdE, since many sets omit those pieces. The sound is very good for early digital, but I much prefer Chailly and Gielen from that standpoint.
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I would like the Inbal set more, if the sound quality were a bit more up to date. At the time, I thought it sounded pretty good. But on my equipment - faulty as that may be (like my memory) - the remastered Bertini recordings (the box set) slam-dunk the Inbal ones in the sound quality department. The Chailly ones are pretty good in the audio department as well (and sorry; just not a big fan of the Gielen cycle).
I find Inbal's 8th to be particularly diffuse and opaque sounding. The 6th was recorded at an almost extreme low level. Inbal's 2nd has that weird balance problem with the two vocalists (as I recall, they're waaaaaay too close sounding). His M1 wasn't much to write home about either. In terms of audio quality, I found the 4th to be Inbal's best. It's a good performance too. All in all, a very solid cycle from a purely musical standpoint. But I would rather have the Bertini box, and supplement it with any number of complete M10 recordings. That's just me.
Barry
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I may have a minority opinion but I don't think EVERY symphony in the Bertini set has top quality sound. For example, the M6th sounds rather harsh and edgy being an early digital recording. The M9th (I've listened to the remastered version), as I have repeatedly said, doesn't sound all that great either; it is murky and lacks details except for the heavy brass and percussion (Barry must love them though). That it was recorded live may explain it. OTOH, the M8th sounds magnificent.
Speaking of the Inbal set I like it very much except for the M1 and M2. I think the sound quality is very consistent and as good as any, and the M9th sounds particularly pretty impressive (wide dynamic range, e.g.).
John,
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Yeah, OK, the Bertini 9th doesn't have the best sound quality; true enough. But as a performance and interpretation (hate that word; let's call it "conducting job"), I'll take over it Inbal's oddly proportioned one. I also find that the Bertini 9th displays just outrageous control during the softer, slower; more "zen-like" passages. It's truly more to my liking, but both are good.
Barry
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Yes, Barry. The Inbal M9th is somewhat oddly proportioned; II is rather awkward in tempo and execution, III. is too bright in its mood, IV. isn't as expansive as it should have been. But there is no quibbling that it has one of the greatest first movements. Still, overall it is a pretty excellent M9th.
If someone can combine the interpretation of Bertini/TMSO/Fontec with the execution of Bertini/CRSO/EMI... :-\
John,