Author Topic: OT: Tristan und Isolde  (Read 11175 times)

Offline Prospero

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Re: OT: Tristan und Isolde
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2011, 04:34:09 PM »
Mea culpa maxima. That should be Bryan Magee, "The Tristan Chord: Wagner and Philosophy."

Tom in Vermont

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: OT: Tristan und Isolde
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2011, 12:17:43 AM »
Then again, it could just be a good piece of music, albeit long.   ;)

Offline Prospero

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Re: OT: Tristan und Isolde
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2011, 03:43:24 PM »
Not wishing to be overly insistent, T&I is one of the most revolutionary works in the history of music. It portrays a cosmos of the internal world of desire that changed the nature of music and probably art in general for all of late 19th and early 20th century culture. Just consider the influence of Wagner and "Tristan" on Mahler, Bruckner, and Schoenberg. Also, see the quotes from Tristan in T.S. Eliot's "The Waste land," for instance.

Long. I suppose. But in its greatest performances overwhelming. It may not be to your taste, but like a Mahler symphony, it is not to be listened to as a curiosity but as a world.

Best,

Tom in Vermont

Offline John Kim

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Re: OT: Tristan und Isolde
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2011, 04:32:31 PM »
As much as I admire T&I, I think Wagner's last opera, Parsifal is even a greater work. IMO, not a single note is wasted in this piece, and the orchestration is just well-nigh perfect from A to Z.

Who needs Mahler or Bruckner when he or she listens to Wagner?

Just a kidding! :P ;)

John,

Offline Prospero

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Re: OT: Tristan und Isolde
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2011, 08:45:24 PM »
I certainly admire "Parsifal" (having seen it live four times, including at Bayreuth, for which Wagner wrote the score), but Barry was taking exception to the length of "Tristan" among other things, and "Parsifal" is about an hour longer than "Tristan." Again, I find the 1962 Knappertsbusch recording with Hotter as Gurnemanz compelling.

Tom

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: OT: Tristan und Isolde
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2011, 11:11:07 PM »
Tom in Vermont,

"T&I" is very much too my taste.  ;D I just don't take the philosophical side of things too seriously. Remember what Richard Strauss said when some correspondent asked him what "Die Frau ohne Schatten" was all about: "how the hell should I know, go ask Hoffmensthal". Frankly, I have no idea what-the-heck Mahler's 8th is all about, and I don't think that anybody seriously does either. Seriously, "Tristan" is just fine with me.

Offline Prospero

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Re: OT: Tristan und Isolde
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2011, 12:43:10 AM »
Barry,

Richard Strauss was not Wagner. Wagner wrote the librettos to all his mature operas, and he wrote voluminously about opera and music and his own works. Works like "The Art Work of the Future" and "Opera and Drama" and many others plus an extensive autobiography--so while many of us may not be particularly interested in philosophy and music, Wagner was. His study of Kant and Schopenhauer, as Magee demonstrates, was intensive and extensive through his mature life. His discovery of Schopenhauer in 1854 certainly developed quickly into his writing of "Tristan" and deeply influenced his reimagining of the Ring, the meditative aspects of Meistersinger, and perhaps the whole of Parsifal.

Wagner also had extensive discussions and arguments about Kant and Schopenhauer with one of the most powerful (and dangerous) philosophers of the modern world, Nietzsche. Nietzsche wrote his first major work, "The Birth of Tragedy" under the spell of Wagner and "Tristan." Of course Nietzsche felt it necessary to take the strongest possible opposition to Wagner with Parsifal in his late works--so much afoot there, So while these things might not appeal to many of us, Wagner's deep connection to philosophy is undeniable.

All the best, Barry, and thanks for your many posts to this list. I've learned a great deal from them and others over the last few months.

Tom (in Vermont)

Offline bluesbreaker

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Re: OT: Tristan und Isolde
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2011, 02:21:37 PM »
I got the Bernstein's recording and gave a listen to the Prelude, first 10 minutes of Act 1, Liebestod, and the Love scene (sex scene maybe?)in Act 2.
Man, typical Lenny: full of passion! The Liebestod does sound kinda similar to Der Abschied.......listen to both back to back and see what I mean.
The Prelude also somehow predicts the M9 and M10 adagio.
That leads me thinking: what would T&I sound like under Mahler?
Under The Dark Side Of The Glass Moon

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: OT: Tristan und Isolde
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2011, 12:54:56 AM »
"what would T&I sound like under Mahler?"

I'm sure you know that Mahler and Alfred Roller (producer) were very famous for their performances of "Tristan" at the Vienna Imperial Opera.

Offline bluesbreaker

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Re: OT: Tristan und Isolde
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2011, 01:04:42 AM »
"what would T&I sound like under Mahler?"

I'm sure you know that Mahler and Alfred Roller (producer) were very famous for their performances of "Tristan" at the Vienna Imperial Opera.

Have not read about it yet. When I have the time(which I don't have these days) I will research it. All I know is that Mahler did the premire in Vienna.
Edit: Just googled it. There's a document of 200+ pages so I need time to read. From the first page seems like the performance was a total success.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 01:33:52 AM by bluesbreaker »
Under The Dark Side Of The Glass Moon

 

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