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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: James Meckley on February 20, 2010, 06:42:12 PM
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The booklet for the Royal Edition CD release of the Bernstein/LSO Mahler 2 gives the following recording data:
Recording: Ely Cathedral, England, August 31 & September 1 & 2, 1973; George Watson's College, Edinburgh, Scotland, March 8, 1974.
Does anyone know what took place at the secondary location in Scotland? Organ overdub, perhaps?
James
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James,
Believe it or not, I've never heard Lenny's Resurrection with LSO (except for a video excerpt for the final peroration part in V.) :-X :-[ :-\. But I heard it was recorded live at a London cathedral that has an organ (correct me if I am wrong about this). So, I guess there was need to separately record the organ at a different location.
John,
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I didn't know that an organ overdub was made for the recording. The Columbia Quadraphonic LP set that I have of Bernstein/LSO M2 is definitely very weak on organ, though of any other issue of that recording, save the Royal Edition, the Quadraphonic LP issue has the best sound of any I've heard. Also, having been part of a choral concert at Ely Cathedral in Summer, 1976, I definitely recognize the architecture of that venue in the video version of the performance. And whatever organ sound there is on the video version is weak as well. I haven't heard the Royal Edition version, so there's no way I can tell if there is evidence of an organ on that recording. Maybe they decided that an organ overdub was necessary to give sense to the recording, so I would wonder why they didn't go back to Ely Cathedral itself to record the overdub as opposed to going to a different acoustical venue.
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How is Lenny's LSO recording compared to his NYPO recording (Sony)?
I know some regard this his greatest Resurrection.
John,
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I was just speculating about the possibility of an organ overdub, but that's the most likely reason for a secondary venue being listed in a recording of M2. I've since collected the following information:
1) In the Unitel video, at the times when the organ would be playing, there are no visual cutaways to the pipes or to the console (something they did do in their M8 production), but there are frequent cutaways at various other times to random parts of the cathedral and to other architectural details. This makes me think that the Ely organ was not used at all during the initial recording.
2) The Ely Cathedral organ underwent a major rebuild in 1974-75 (immediately after this production and before Wade was there in 1976). The cathedral used an electronic organ to fill in during the period that the real organ was out of service.
SPECULATION: Perhaps the real organ was already out of service in September 1973 in preparation for its overhaul. It would most likely have been out of service in 1974 when/if they decided to add an overdubbed organ, so they would have had to resort to an instrument in another location (an "organ transplant" as we used to call such a maneuver). Or perhaps the Ely organ and/or its console were located in a part of the cathedral remote from where they had to set up the orchestra, making real-time coordination of organ and orchestra impossible.
I hear very modest evidence of an organ in the Unitel video, and I hear somewhat more organ in the Royal Edition CD, for what that's worth.
TO JOHN: I've read both negative and positive comments about this Resurrection; I like it. It's a more mature and focussed interpretation than his original NYPO recording, and not so distended and wayward as his later DG version. The Unitel audio guys tamed the Ely acoustic nicely—it's a spacious yet detailed recording which serves the music well (though the multi-miking is obvious in many spots). And Dame Janet Baker is wonderful.
James
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I know some regard this his greatest Resurrection.
The recording I've most often seen referred to as Bernstein's greatest Resurrection is his Cleveland Orchestra performance from 1970, available briefly on several pirate labels. I had it on cassette at one time, but that's now buried somewhere in the spare bedroom.
James
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Here's a customer review on SA-CD.net who claims the college in Edinburgh was used for the final movement. (Read the first paragraph.) Now that I think about it, it does ring a very faint bell....
http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/4784
Russell
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Here's a customer review on SA-CD.net who claims the college in Edinburgh was used for the final movement. (Read the first paragraph.) Now that I think about it, it does ring a very faint bell....
Russell,
Thanks for posting this—the plot seems to be thickening. When you say it rings a faint bell, you mean you've heard this claim made elsewhere, that the last movement was recorded in Scotland? Any idea where you heard it?
Some of this reviewer's assertions have me scratching my head. He says in paragraph one, "The Ely Cathedral recording sounded nothing like a cathedral acoustic - it was close miked and rather dry." As someone who's made many recordings in cathedrals, I disagree. It sounds exactly like a recording made in a cathedral, with the microphones pulled in. I hear a T60 reverb time of at least four to five seconds in all the movements, including the last one.
Seeking more information, I timed all the movements on both the Royal Edition CD and the Unitel DVD. They're all within ten seconds of one another except the Urlicht, which is 30 seconds longer on the CD than the DVD, which suggests, at least, that they used a different take.
I did re-audition portions of both recordings side-by-side and must admit that the balances are quite different in the two fifth movements. Interpretively, the CD version's fifth movement also seems somewhat less "intense" than that on the DVD. If they did record the last movement on the CD in a smaller church in Scotland, they could have added artificial reverb until it matched the sound from Ely. They didn't have convolution reverb back then, but the big EMT plates were surprisingly good when used carefully.
BTW, if anyone knows what the reviewer meant by "The reverberant but dry Manhattan Center acoustic..." [italics mine] when referring to the 1963 recording, please advise.
James
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The booklet of the Unitel DVD just says “Recording 9/1973”, but it is evident that this version comes from 3 different performances, at least. If you look at the people seating in the first row of chairs, you realize that there are 3 different groups: one of them for movements I, III and IV; another one for mov. II, and another one for mov. V.
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I know some regard this his greatest Resurrection.
The recording I've most often seen referred to as Bernstein's greatest Resurrection is his Cleveland Orchestra performance from 1970, available briefly on several pirate labels. I had it on cassette at one time, but that's now buried somewhere in the spare bedroom.
James
Concur. The NYPO recording represents Lenny at his "wildest" (if you want to call it that) in his numerous performances of the work. The LSO recording, while having its "wild" moments as well, is definitely more restrained and controlled. The Cleveland recording is a combination of the two approaches, to my ears, and the best.
Wade
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For the record Ely cathedral is in Cambridgeshire, not in London. And yes, the Unitel video is culled from more than one performance. I can only assume the extra sessions at George Watson's College were patches but will make enquiries and let you all know what I find.
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I agree that the LSO/Ely Cathedral performance is quite good, but the "visuals" on the Unitel video are just ridiculous. How many times do we need to keep looking at the dome? I think it has the poorest camera work in the entire Unitel cycle. At this point, I feel that there are far better dvd versions of M2. All in all, I do prefer the earlier New York one, but any captured Mahler performance from Bernstein ranges from very good to outstanding. I've yet to hear the Cleveland one, and I guess should make the effort to do so.
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Here's a customer review on SA-CD.net who claims the college in Edinburgh was used for the final movement. (Read the first paragraph.) Now that I think about it, it does ring a very faint bell....
Russell,
Thanks for posting this—the plot seems to be thickening. When you say it rings a faint bell, you mean you've heard this claim made elsewhere, that the last movement was recorded in Scotland? Any idea where you heard it?
No, not really. That person's comments about the final movement being recorded separately seemed ever-so-faintly familiar, but I certainly can't place where I might have read about it. I did a search of the 'Gramophone' magazine archives during that time period (1973-74), but came up with nothing that would shed more light on the issue--no mention at all about any place other than Ely Cathedral as the recoding venue. It would seem very unusual for all the performers to reassemble several months later in a completely different venue (and much further away from Ely) to record the final movement, but one never knows, I suppose. Incidentally, the LP was reviewed in Gram's November 1974 issue, which could lend some credence to a second recording session in March of that year.
Russell
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...
I hear very modest evidence of an organ in the Unitel video, and I hear somewhat more organ in the Royal Edition CD, for what that's worth.
TO JOHN: I've read both negative and positive comments about this Resurrection; I like it. It's a more mature and focused interpretation than his original NYPO recording, and not so distended and wayward as his later DG version. The Unitel audio guys tamed the Ely acoustic nicely—it's a spacious yet detailed recording which serves the music well (though the multi-miking is obvious in many spots). And Dame Janet Baker is wonderful.
James
As I started reading this thread, I thought that surely the extra recording date had something to do with the organ in the finale. I "remembered" that the CD of the LSO M2 featured an ending that was all organ and brass but very little percussion (tam-tams, bells), which was very different from the DVD which I am certain has very little organ (if any). I'm slowly learning that I cannot trust my memory anymore. I listened to the CD of the LSO M2-5 this morning and am surprised that there didn't appear to be very much organ there either! I was correct about the brass being very good and the percussion being barely audible. To my ears, Lennie conducts the LSO and NYPO/DG ones similarly, although he is a bit slower in the finale of the DG version. I really like the DG M2 best of all since it really nails all aspects of the ending.
But as for shedding any light on the different recording dates and venues, well...my listening session did not help.
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I just received this input from a participant in another forum:
"The March date was a chorus-only video "miming" session that was used for the Unitel film."
One wonders why Sony would have included information on an image-related "miming session" in the recording data column for an audio-only CD release.
James
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OT - but germane to the discussion - All this talk about the Ely Cathedral organ prompted a recall and curiosity of a recording I have in my library of an organ transcription by Arthur Wills, organist at Ely, of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition. This recording is an early digital one, on Hyperion AS66006, recorded on 6-7 July 1980, and engineered by Tony Faulkner, BTW.
The notes have the following about the organ:
"An organ was built in the Cathedral in 1685, reputedly by Ranatus Harris. In 1831, Messrs Elliot & Hill built a new organ within the old cases, which stood on the choir screen. This organ was rebuilt in the North choir triforium by Messrs Hill & Son in 1850, when the old cases and choir screen were removed, and the present case to a design by Sir Gilbert Scott, was installed.
In 1908 Messrs Harrison & Harrison built a virtually new organ, incorporating some of the old pipework. Most of the organ was placed in the North choir triforium, with the console below, on the stone gallery behind the top of the choir stalls.
A restoration in 1974-75 included some tonal changes, a new Positive division in the lower part of the Scott case, development of the Pedal Organ, and modernization of the action and console. The new scheme was drawn up by the Cathedral organist, Dr Arthur Wills, in consultation with Mr. Cecil Clutton and the organ builders. It is a remarkably complete and versatile instrument, naturally well suited to music from the mid-nineteenth century onwards. The Mussorgsky-Wills transcription enables this outstanding instrument to be heard at its best."
If at best, the organ had to have been "on its last legs" at the time of the Bernstein M2 recording.
Wade
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There seems to be a lot of speculation on these pages about why further recording took place in Edinburgh. I find it very amusing, since I know the reason, since I was in the Edinburgh Festival Chorus at the time, and was one of the singers who made the original recording, and was involved in George Watsons in Edinburgh. No it wasn't for miming, and it was nothing to do with the organ....
The television recording was a one-off, since it was a live concert. After it was all over, the sound engineers were unhappy with the quality of the recorded sound, and so it had to be redubbed. Vast speakers were set up at the back of the hall, and the live concert recording was played back to us. Our chorus master, Arthur Oldham, had to synchronise precisely with Bernstein's timing, and our singing was recorded a second time. In effect, the recording is the original recording with the George Watsons recording superimposed. In the final CD/DVD there is just one entry which is not quite synchronised, but you need to know where to spot it.
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Very interesting, CFW. Thanks for this additional information.
James
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I'll stick with my original opinion: I like the earlier New York one better. I also agree that the Cleveland one is better still.
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I'm interpreting the information within this update as an attempt to salvage what was felt to be a unsuccessfully engineered recording. But thanks, CFW, for relating to us what you experienced. Whether or not the result was successful in the minds of the engineers is one thing, but to my ears, I still don't hear the organ. And personal preference of Lenny's many recorded performances is still yet another issue. In conclusion, we probably should expect to hear an overall difference in sound between the Unitel filmed recording vs. the Columbia Masterworks recording. The Masterworks recording has the overdub.
Wade