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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: john haueisen on June 05, 2011, 02:10:08 PM
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What piece would you recommend to a new listener who is curious about Mahler?
For us Mahlerians, people come to realize that most of us are almost obsessive about Mahler's music. Often, they eventually ask us what they should listen to in order to get an idea about why we love Mahler's music so much. Should we recommend a particular piece, and should we suggest that they listen very closely, or merely keep playing it as background while they gradually become accustomed to it?
What piece or technique should we use to give them a chance to grow to love Mahler as we do? I realize this is not easy, but somebody give it a try. Make a suggestion.
How would you go about it?
--John Haueisen
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One thing's for sure; nothing's sure.
I've read here people getting hooked by M8 which I'd have otherwise thought one of the last.
Depends on the tastes of the person you have in mind.
Ivor
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Personally, I agree with Ivor, that M8 would seem to come later in most folk's familiarization with Mahler.
We certainly can't answer a friend's question about where he should start by using a set "menu" for becoming hooked on Mahler.
But Mahler Board members: what would you tell a friend who asks, "Where should I start, if I want to get to know Mahler's music?"
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Hallo, Hansel!
At the risk of getting nowhere fast, I would recommend starting at the beginning with Symphony No. 1. It should require less "instruction" about what to expect or listen for. Once alerted, most reasonably attentive listeners should easily recognize those elements--and take some satisfaction in having done so. I hope, I hope, I hope. [Does anyone remember Al Pearce of radio days?]
No. 4 is frequently touted as entry-level Mahler. Maybe so, but knowing the song is, I think, necessary for understanding and appreciation.
Your suggestion of repeated listening (not just hearing) is sound (no pun intended). As we all know, even we who are familiar with the Mahler works continue to find something new in each performance.
. & '
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Also factor in that the person who's asking may be one for whom Mahler isn't their cup of tea [c.Boulez].
Maybe trust your intuitions about the person you are introducing Mahler too.
The first work that swung it for me was, of all things, the Sixth. But then I can be a bit serious :-)
Ivor
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The Sixth is what got me hooked, too. But I don't think I would recommend starting there. ;-) If I were going to recommend a starting point for someone, I would probably say M5, of all things. Why? Because there is a clear journey from tragedy to triumph that I think most people will identify with.
Which brings up the question: Why am I giving a bunch of recordings of M9 as "Farewell" gifts to people on Friday? If I can't practice it, I probably shouldn't preach it. ;-)
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Also factor in that the person who's asking may be one for whom Mahler isn't their cup of tea [c.Boulez].
Maybe trust your intuitions about the person you are introducing Mahler too.
This, to my mind, is the primary factor that must be first considered even before playing them a note of Mahler. What sort of personality do they have? And if they are unfortunately afflicted with ADHD, Mahler (with the possible exception of opera) would be a composer you would not want to introduce that person to.
Since Mahler was an individual who experienced life's tragic aspects throughout most of his own life, a person who has either similarly experienced one or more similar tragedies as did Mahler might possibly be a candidate to introduce to Mahler.
And most importantly, does that person exhibit a musical personality?
There are so many factors that must be taken into account if you are to be hopefully successful in such a venture.
Wade
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I would suggest that a good first exposure to Mahler might be the various songs, maybe a custom "favorites mix." Short enough for someone not to be overwhelmed, but still convey a great sense of Mahler's music. Especially since some of the songs end up finding their way into some of the symphonies in one form or another, they might peak someone's interest in hearing more.
My two cents, anyway.
Otherwise, I think M8 is a great way to start too! :) Worked for me.
Best,
Herb
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What about the Adagietto from M5? It's not too long and it is probably Mahler's best-known work.
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There's a Philips compilation from 1995 called "Adagietto" with Haitink and the RCO containing Adagietto from M5, Poco Adagio from M4, Andante moderato from M6, “Urlicht“ from M2, and Adagio from M3. I think that's a fairly nice introduction. Otherwise M1 should also do nicely as a starter.
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Adagietto-Music-Love/dp/B000025FNN/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1307426569&sr=1-1
Roffe
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It depends a lot on what a newcomer already listens to. If they are not into classical music at all, it may be a lost cause. I started with the 9th. I was already a listener primarily of symphonies, and the 9th was easy to follow and it seemed to tell a moving story.
I second the suggestion of the 5th as well. It's really loud and brassy and gives a good overview of Mahler's sound world (aside from singing. I particularly like the Frank Shipway SACD recording of the 5th with the RPO. It's a veritable wall of sound.
Dave
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To my mind,the Ashkenazy/Sydney S.O. M1 (Exton) is ideal because it comes with the "Songs of a Wayfarer", as well as "Blumine" as an addendum. For far less money, the Ozawa/BSO/DG M1 did the exact same thing, except that "Blumine" was reinserted into its original second movement position. Unfortunately, the Ozawa/DG M1 is now out-of-print. Either way, emphasize following the text to the songs. Then I would try to get them on to the "Resurrection" symphony as quickly as possible. If that sticks, give it a year or two, and then move on to symphonies 3 &4. You could offer the 4th before the third, I suppose. But if you do that, try to whet their appetite for the 3rd. I agree with a point that somebody made earlier: as wonderful as the 4th symphony is, I don't think that I would use it as a starting point. The 4th is too 'erudite', and doesn't make a whole lot of sense without knowing M1 and M3 first (less so with the 2nd).
Unless they're already a big fan of brass, I don't think that I would try to start somebody out with Mahler 5 or 6. "Das Klagende Lied" can be skipped altogether. Once they get to the 6th symphony, they should also hear the "5 Ruckert Lieder" and the "Kindertotenlieder". Again, they would need to follow the text to get the most out of those works.
So here's what I suggest (the short version): burn them a CD that goes in the order of "Songs of Wayfarer", M1, then "Blumine". Be sure to copy the text and liner notes too. Emphasize that M1 is their reward for sticking with the songs. Pique their curiosity by pointing out that "Blumine" was the original second movement to the first version of M1, the so-called "Titan". Making bigger copies of the CD liner notes makes it much easier for people to read that tiny c-r-a-p. That should be a good introduction. If they like it, then quickly move on to the "Resurrection".
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Unfortunately, the Ozawa/DG M1 is now out-of-print.
If anyone is interested, this disc is available on Eloquence from Europe for EUR 6.57 post free.
It is coupled with the Fischer-Dieskau/Bohm recording of the Ruckert Lieder.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sinfonie-1-der-Titan-ruckert-Lieder-Berliner-Phi-/170636181523?pt=B%C3%BCcher_Unterhaltung_Music_CDs&hash=item27bab58013
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It turns out that I'm faced with this issue on Thursday. I usually listen to Mahler with a friend of mine on Thursday evenings, and this week we'll have several guests joining us, most of whom have heard at least a portion of M2 before, but one or two that have had little to no Mahler exposure. We will be listening to M2, so I'll let you all know how it's received by this group.
Cheers,
Herb
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It turns out that I'm faced with this issue on Thursday. I usually listen to Mahler with a friend of mine on Thursday evenings, and this week we'll have several guests joining us, most of whom have heard at least a portion of M2 before, but one or two that have had little to no Mahler exposure. We will be listening to M2, so I'll let you all know how it's received by this group.
Cheers,
Herb
"Several" is a much larger number than the "less than a few" I know that I've had in one room at one time with any previous exposure to Mahler. Consider yourself fortunate that you've able to gather that large a number at the same place at the same time.
Wade
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I agree with Wade, in congratulating Herb that he was able to get "several" people together at the same time who are willing to be introduced to Mahler.
Does anyone have a suggestion for Herb as to a couple of "opening lines"--some quick explanation of Mahler or the characteristics of M2 that might pique their interest and put them in a receptive mood to meet their first experience with Mahler?
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How 'bout, "fasten your seatbelts"?
Emphasize that it's an all inclusive, more 'humanist' view of getting into heaven. Mention that at the end of the symphony, the western Judeo-Christian sounds of choirs, brass and organ, get accompanied by the more 'eastern' sounds of gongs and bells. Hey, it's an angle.
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I agree with Wade, in congratulating Herb that he was able to get "several" people together at the same time who are willing to be introduced to Mahler.
Does anyone have a suggestion for Herb as to a couple of "opening lines"--some quick explanation of Mahler or the characteristics of M2 that might pique their interest and put them in a receptive mood to meet their first experience with Mahler?
This is a great idea - give me your best M2 "elevator pitch"!
Barry's is a great start....
Best,
Herb
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My pitch for M2 might be to say, truthfully, that the first time i heard it, live at a concert, I had to go, with my frined, to the Royal Festivalk hall cafe and sit down for a bit cos I was shaking.
Otoh, I actually usually don't big up anything I really like as it rather sets up the new listener for a potential fall when it doesn't happen for them.
Actually I'd probably just say,"See what you think of this" and play only the 2nd movement; to see if sheer unadulterated gorgeousness doesn't appeal like it always SHOULD. :-)
Ivor
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I agree with Ivor's warning not to try to build up expectations. Blinded by my own love for M2, I have sometimes (even if unconsciously) been pressuring others to appreciate it as I do.
Love cannot be forced.
We can only hope that exposure may lead to appreciation, which may lead to love for it.
Perhaps Ivor is right, that we should keep it low key, with a casual, "What do you think of this?" Maybe not even mention the title or the composer, and just let the music come to them. Perhaps they will be as fortunate as many of us have been to be something like "touched by the gods."
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It turns out that I'm faced with this issue on Thursday. I usually listen to Mahler with a friend of mine on Thursday evenings, and this week we'll have several guests joining us, most of whom have heard at least a portion of M2 before, but one or two that have had little to no Mahler exposure. We will be listening to M2, so I'll let you all know how it's received by this group.
Cheers,
Herb
Herb,
I and maybe others on this board are curious about the outcome of Thursday's event. Hope you had a pleasnt evening.
Roffe
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Yes, Herb and Roffe, we are interested in how the evening went.
I believe that all or many of us would enjoy helping others to appreciate the great beauty and "ability to move one" of Mahler's music. So tell us Herb: what did you say before you started the music, and how did your guests react?
John H
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Hello Everyone,
Sorry for my late reply, it's been a hectic few days here. To fill you in on my Mahler evening on Thursday:
The evening was hosted by my friend with whom I usually listen to Mahler on Thursday. (Her stereo is better than mine, and she is retired and lives alone so we can listen as loudly as we please). She had invited two friends of hers while I brought along my mother-in-law who is here on a visit from Poland. I would say that each of these three guests new to Mahler have some appreciation for classical music but in a very casual manner.
The two friends of our host had both heard the last 10 minutes of so of M2 because my friend had it played at her husband's funeral service as it was his very favorite.
To prepare for the evening, I had printed out the text for Urlicht and movement 5 for each person. They did ask for a "pre-concert talk", so I gave a very brief overview of the symphony's main themes, using Barry's idea of thinking of the symphony as the humanist, inclusive view of striving towards heaven. I also mentioned David Hurwitz's thoughts about the huge shift in mood between movements 4 and 5 - that Urlicht is a view of simple child-like faith that doesn't quite square with Mahler's true beliefs - hence the opening of movement 5 can be seen as a violent reaction to that sort of faith. I gave a sentence or two of description of each of the 5 movements so they would have some feel for the overall structure of the symphony. I did mention the Wunderhorn origin of the 3rd movement and described the humor of that song with its lyrics of St. Anthony and the fish. I probably spoke for 5 minutes or less altogether.
We took a short break after movement 1, following Mahler's thoughts on the subject. With that pause, I was able to gauge the early reaction a bit. Everyone seemed very impressed and involved, though perhaps a bit surprised at the intensity of the movement. It was interesting to see that as the second movement began, what I think Mahler had mentioned as an interlude after the storm of the first movement, had exactly that effect! Our guests visibly relaxed and for a few moments enjoyed the more peaceful, lyrical strings. Of course with Mahler, those interludes don't usually last for too long... :)
The third movement was a big hit, I think having given them the visual reference of the fish swimming along oblivious to the sermon helped ground the experience for them in something easy to imagine.
Urlicht was another favorite. Well, how can one not like that one, really? I offered to take another short break after that, but everyone was anxious to press ahead, so on we went to the last movement. As it was progressing, I did warn of the upcoming huge timpani rolls and the chaos that comes in after that. Also I explained about the offstage brass and their role in the symphony as we went along. The choir came in, and it was all smiles for our friends. That sense of having been through a struggle and now having won our reward was palpable. At the conclusion, one of the guests said, simply: "Triumphant!".
The next day I happened to see everyone and get their opinion after having some time to reflect on the experience. Everyone was very positive. I got some compliments for my explanations, but I hastened to credit you all here for your assistance with that! Each of the guests said they would like to come back again for a Mahler night.
I live in a very small town in northern New Hampshire, where cultural events are few and far between. It was encouraging to see people interested and excited in something like this. Who knows? Maybe my little town will have a full-fledged Mahler Society soon! Now word is definitely out about our Mahler Thursday nights. :)
Anyway, thank you for your advice and your interest in my little adventure in Mahler proselytization.
Cheers,
Herb
PS: I suppose if you've read this far, you're curious what version I played for this occasion. I chose one that is not often spoken of as a first choice but is becoming a favorite of mine: Bertini / Cologne from his EMI box set. I have others on CD, but I played that one because I feel it's a nice compromise between the more self-indulgent interpretations (some of which I love!) and the more reserved ones (also some of which appeal to me). I very much appreciate that not only can you hear the bells and organ very clearly at the end, but also the tam-tam in the final few bars. Too often one or all of those get drowned out at the end.
I had given some thought to playing Mehta's version, but the sound quality was not as good and I thought it might be a little off-putting for more casual listeners. I had gone as far as last week testing that CD on my friend's stereo but at louder volumes it just didn't hold up well.
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Wonderful, Herb!
It sounds as if you approached this in the best manner I can imagine.
I tried a similar approach last year, when I spoke to the Columbus Symphony Women about Mahler. Although they all were overwhelmingly warm and full of praise for my Mahler talk and music, I did not know until last week how well I had succeeded. A total stranger came up to me and began shaking my hand and showering me with praise. She said their group had never experienced such a lecture as mine, and that many of them were sharing more and more Mahler. Mine was different in that it was intended as a lecture with musical excerpts, but the principle is the same.
I really don't think I have ever done a "Mahler Night" as well as you did on Thursday. As others here at the board have cautioned, it's important not to scare them off with too many details. From what you described, you seem to have struck just the right balance, with results that we can all appreciate. Maybe we can all learn from your example here, and experiment with new ways to share one of the loves of our life.
Thanks, Herb!
--John H
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Thank you for sharing, Herb.
Wow! It seems that your Mahler night was a total success. It also seems that M2 is a good Mahler starter for a beginner; I'll keep that in mind.
Please let us know if this group continue to listen to Mahler in the future.
Thanks again and congrats
Roffe
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Herb, that was indeed a RARE instance that you were able to get a select few of your friends to learn about and appreciate M2. There are two ladies up the street from me who are originally from Austria, but I know that only one of them has a love of classical music in general, but I'm not absolutely sure about the other. My wife is able to tolerate Mahler through the fact that I love his music, being as her favorites are Brahms and Handel, but I'm not sure about the two ladies up the street from me. The fact that your friends may have had a basic knowledge of German (particularly your mother-in-law) could have helped. Also, the fact that your female friend hosted the event and used a M2 recording as a part of her deceased husband's funeral certainly had to not make the evening as intimidating for her guests as opposed to you hosting it.
I know what I've written above sounds like I'm making excuses for not wanting to host a Mahler event, but I tried to do something similar years ago that your friend did, involving other composers, but nobody came. None of them were of European origin. >:( :'(
Wade
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If I were going to recommend a starting point for someone, I would probably say M5, of all things. Why? Because there is a clear journey from tragedy to triumph that I think most people will identify with.
I think M2 portraits better in that regard.
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Michael,
I believe you are correct that M2 better builds to an impressive climax.
With at least some introductory explanations, M2 certainly should inspire people to feel the large emotions and grandeur of this expressive work. M2 has had such an impact upon my life that my tombstone will be inscribed: "sterben werd' ich um zu leben."
My usual problem is the danger of providing "too much explanation." It is more productive to find balance in telling new listeners enough to stimulate their interest, without overwhelming them with my own passion for Mahler.
John H
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Michael,................
My usual problem is the danger of providing "too much explanation." It is more productive to find balance in telling new listeners enough to stimulate their interest, without overwhelming them with my own passion for Mahler.
John H
Tell me about it. I made that mistake myself a few years back.
Michael
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Michael,................
My usual problem is the danger of providing "too much explanation." It is more productive to find balance in telling new listeners enough to stimulate their interest, without overwhelming them with my own passion for Mahler.
John H
Tell me about it. I made that mistake myself a few years back.
Michael
Yeah, it's difficult bnot to get carried away. You really have to restrain yourself.
Roffe
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Herb,
I think you're decision to use the Bertini recording - in lieu of the more famous Mehta/VPO one - because of the differences in sound quality underlines a very important point. Many people want to believe that, just as the case is with Beethoven, Brahms and Bruckner, that the 'golden age' for Mahler was sometime in the past. But I always argue that NOW is the golden age for Mahler, and it may get even better in the future (the predicted drop in interest doesn't seem to be happening). That's basically for two reasons: first, conductors and orchestral musicians are far more familiar with the music than they were in previous decades. Young musicians coming out of music schools and conservatories have to know their Mahler excerpts backwards and forwards. Conductors are being judged on their Mahler pretty much every year. The second reason is because of the obvious improvements in sound quality on recordings (and downloads - I won't forget the downloads).
I've had a number of people lecture me that 'sound' isn't that important in recordings. I always reply back, "funny, I thought music WAS sound". That's an obvious point that holds particularly true for Mahler, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, etc. All of this is to say that I think you made a wise decision, even though the Mehta may be more of a sentimental favorite with you (and truth be told, the organ and percussion are not all that great at the end of the Mehta recording).
Also wise was your decision to not over spoon-feed your guests. Good job and congratulations.
I once belonged to a listening group here in San Francisco, where one of the members had great success playing the Blomstedt version of Mahler 2. Then again, that recording - one that I like, by the way - involves our hometown orchestra.
I once finished off a listening party - one where I was choosing the music - with just the "Blicket auf" and "Chorus Mysticus" sections of Mahler 8 (the ending, in other words). The ones who liked loud music loved it, but some of the others weren't so enthused. Then again, we had a strange mix of opera queens, modern music mavens and early music buffs. It's a wonder any of them got along at all.
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Surely we have to agree with the excellent points Barry has made here: that sound quality counts, that more musicicans and conductors are familiar with Mahler, that we shouldn't over-analyze (spoon-feed) our guests, and that we need to acknowledge that our audiences may range from those who like soft, gentle vs. loud or brassy.
I especially enjoyed Barry's closing line: "we had a strange mix of opera queens, modern music mavens and early music buffs. It's a wonder any of them got along at all."
So, I second Barry's congratulations to Herb, for a job well-done. I know I've learned from this discussion how to better expose new listeners to Mahler (with less likelihood that my over-enthusiasm will "scare them off.)"
John H