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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: chalkpie on September 22, 2012, 01:31:35 AM
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I admit, I know next-to-nothing about Bruckner, but hot damn, is this movement one masterfully written gorgeous adagio. Mahler fans must eat this up.
So on that topic, what other adagios (or just slow movements) by Bruckner are on this level, or is this his masterpiece? I am listening to the Von Karajan version on YT. Some very ingenious chord progressions.
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Just speaking for myself, I feel that Bruckner's most 'beautiful' adagio is the one to his 6th symphony. In fact, if it weren't for the finale, I feel that the 6th would be among Bruckner's very greatest works. In other words, the first three movements are terrific.
I very much like the first two movements to Bruckner's 7th, both of which being rather 'slow' in tempo and feel. In fact, the 7th is my favorite of Bruckner's 'completed' symphonies.
Needless to say, the last movement to Bruckner's 9th is a truly monumental movement (discounting the almost absurd, conjectural finale).
When it comes to Bruckner's monumental 8th symphony, it's actually the first movement that I like best. In fact, I think that I may prefer the first version of B8 to the much better known revision.
Just my zwei groschen.
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I agree with barry, the first movement is a monumentally brilliant and complicated built-up to and sustainment of a central climax, phenonmenal. The second movement is my second fav of B8 just for the sheer joy of it.
As far B7, I love the second movement for pretty much the identical reason as the first movement of the B8, also the long paced string theme, you can't get much more beautiful and yet refined than that.
I love the B3 scherzo also, the sudden contrast between the sensationlistic bombast and the care-free joyous dance theme, brilliant. It is amazing what Bruckner can do with rhythm in his sound world.
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Chalkpie,
The slow movements of Bruckner Seven and Eight are the pinnacles for me, the one from Seven incorporating as it does the 'non confundar in aeternum' theme from his Te Deum. Its elegiac coda was dedicated 'to the memory of the highly revered, well-loved and immortal master' when Bruckner became aware that Richard Wagner had died.
I prefer to hear the slow movement of Seven with the optional cymbal crash and additional percussion at the climax (as per Leopold Nowak).
The slow movements of Five and Six are also profoundly moving.
James
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Yes, B5 has a real good slow movement as well. However, I think it works better if it's NOT taken too slowly. Again, that's just my opinion.
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Others before me have pretty much summed up what slow Bruckner movements I think are masterly. There are movements of Bruckner symphonies that are of a different mood, and just as important to their accompanying adagio movements. For me, these are the third movement of his 7th symphony, the finale of the 8th, and the first and last (not the incomplete one) movement of his 9th. Earlier, the first movement of his 4th is pretty good, too.
There are now numerous complete cycles of the symphonies available for bargain prices. The most recent one is on DG with Barenboim/Chicago, but others may prefer the cycle by Jochum/Dresden Staatskapelle. Barenboim uses the Haas edition of the symphonies for his recordings and Jochum uses the Nowak edition. There is a thread elsewhere at the Gustav Mahler Board discussing the editions if you're inclined to go look for it. Additionally, here is an interesting web site: http://www.abruckner.com/ (http://www.abruckner.com/).
Wade
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Thanks for the info fellas.
I guess I need to figure out what is the difference in editions?
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A person who enjoys slow movement such as these might also enjoy the slow movement with the violin solo in Glass's 3rd, if you can get over listening to Glass of course. ;D
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I guess I need to figure out what is the difference in editions?
I hate to say it, but yes, that is probably the biggest impediment to a listener's full appreciation of Bruckner's symphonies. That will take concentrated listening to hear the differences. Probably the most ready instance you will hear in recordings of say, the 7th, is whether or not a conductor wants to have a cymbal clash in the second movement climax.
Most conductors' recordings adhere to the Haas edition, so if you want to buy a complete cycle, I suggest you start with that one. Then "graduate" to a cycle using Nowak's edition.
Wade
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Would Von Karajan's DG Berliner box be a good starting point for a Bruckner newbie like me? It's cheap enough.
I'm not interested in buying separate discs of each symphony (yet) - I want one consistent set to get started, sort of like The Bertini (for GM) or Barshai (for DSCH).
How are the sonics in the Von K DG set?
Thanks.
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Would Von Karajan's DG Berliner box be a good starting point for a Bruckner newbie like me? It's cheap enough. [snip] How are the sonics in the Von K DG set?
The price is right and HvK's performances would serve your purposes well. My only reservation is that the sound isn't very good. Symphonies 1, 2, and 3 are early digital recordings and the sound is quite harsh. The rest are analog, but they were remastered early in the digital era and the sound isn't great there either, though it's tolerable. Might be a good choice depending on your ability to deal with so-so audio.
James
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As of the date of this post, based on James Meckley's input above regarding varying sound quality of the Karajan set (which I don't have), for an additional fifteen dollars, you also get with the Barenboim/CSO set, the early Symphony No. "0", plus Bruckner's Te Deum and another short choral work, Helgoland. While I'm unable to compare the sound quality of both sets, and considering that Karajan was good with Bruckner, Barenboim was no slouch either with Bruckner, he, having been a student of Furtwangler who was considered the foremost authority on Bruckner performance.
Wade
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I own two CD incarnations of the Barenboim/CSO set: the original DG release from the late 80s (in print for about six months) and the special remastering done by Tower Records of Japan (a very expensive import, now out of print). The sound of the original DG set is rather coarse and grainy, while the Japanese remastering represents a significant improvement. I don't have the current DG budget box, but I suspect the sound is fine—it may have even been lifted straight from the Japanese box.
Interpretively, this first Barenboim set is a young man's Bruckner—more exuberant than profound—but the CSO display all the power they're justly famous for. My only caveat, if you go this route, is to not take too seriously the way Barenboim handles the coda to No. 8; it's utterly wrong-headed and spoils an otherwise fine performance. (Furtwängler did it the same way, and he—at least at this spot—was equally wrong-headed.)
James
EDIT: An Amazon alternate seller is currently offering the Barenboim Bruckner set new for $31.95.
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Many thanks for the input guys.
Sound/sonics is quite important to me in my enjoyment of classical music, as some of you know I am more "modernist" Mahler guy, so maybe I will get more mileage out of the Barenboim set.
I have and enjoy his M5, M7, and M9 on occasion.
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Chalkpie,
For the same price or less (about $22.00 from one Amazon alternate seller!) you can get Barenboim's second Bruckner set, this time with the Berlin Philharmonic on Teldec. The sound is better (modern digital recordings) and the interpretations are more refined—he had another twenty years to think about them. Something to consider since sound is important to you.
He still fumbles the end of Symphony No. 8.
James
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wait:
Barenboim has 2 cycles? Chicago and Berliner?
Which one gets the nod?
What about Joshum?
What is considered the best sounding set out there?
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1) Yes, Barenboim did two Bruckner cycles, Chicago and Berlin.
2) If I were getting only one of them and were concerned about sound, I'd get Berlin.
3) Jochum also did two cycles, one on DG with two different orchestras and one on EMI with Dresden. Neither of his sets sounds as good as the Barenboim Berlin set.
4) Dunno. If you want a cheap set that sounds good and does a decent job of representing Bruckner's music, just get the Barenboim/Berlin box and expand your collection from there. It's only twenty bucks!
Of course you may get other advice from other quarters.
James
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Thanks again!
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I've never heard the chicago cycle but it has its fans. I think the warner/teldec cycle is excellent and darned near flawless but it seems many don't think this to be the case, there seems to be much bias over Barenboim for some wide ranging reasons. There is also a digital set on the membran label which includes No. O and the Te Deum, it is an excellent cycle also though the conductor is almost completely unknown, it was and still is very affordable but lately the price has started inching upwards a bit. The old Haitink cycle would be outstanding if it had better bass, I'm not a person who nessesarily need a lengthy and winded B8, and in the old Haitink and Barnenboim/Warner sets you won't get them.
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I'm not a fan of Jochum's Bruckner (either cycle) - owing to his accellerandos which undermine the structure, and rather diminish the slow movements' impact.
On a budget I would go for Wand (recently reissued cheaply I think) or Barenboim's Berlin Teldec cycle, which has very good versions of 5 and 9 (in fact this is my favourite Ninth).
The only snag is Barenboim's lumbering account of the Second Symphony (one of my favourites) which has a beautiful slow movement. Best version is Wakasugi's CD with the Saarbrucken Radio SO on the superbudget Arte Nova label. Otherwise Haitink, Chailly, Karajan or Giulini are fine.
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Anybody know the Wand set?
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Anybody know the Wand set?
Günter Wand's final recordings of Bruckner with the Berlin Philharmonic are some of the best Bruckner available. His NDR-Hamburg recordings are also excellent for the most part. Unfortunately, the RCA budget set referred to above (recorded 1974–81) represents Wand's first stab at the Bruckner symphonies, with the Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester (he came to Bruckner rather late in life). I don't think his interpretations here are fully formed—they're nowhere near as impressive as his later ones from Berlin or Hamburg—and the engineering is nothing special.
I agree with akiralx about Jochum, which is why I didn't recommend either set. His interventionist approach regarding tempo (and dynamics) robs the music of it's power and nobility.
James
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The entire Bruckner repertory at this point in time is such that the choices are too varied and difficult to decide upon. If I were a newbie to Bruckner as chalkpie is, and wondering about whether Bruckner is a good composer overall, I would be cautious about spending an unnecessary amount of money and narrow my choices to buy a set at a bargain price by a conductor who is regarded as doing a good job overall in performing the symphonies better than most everyone else, simply to get a flavor of how Bruckner ought to sound performance-wise, and not necessarily make sound quality a must in my choice, which should help in narrowing the field.
Though Bruckner wrote some powerful orchestral tutti, they do not quite approach the power and do not necessarily need cutting-edge recording technology (such as SACD) that Mahler requires for his works. Years ago, I had only the now-outdated Haitink Philips and Jochum early DG sets as my two choices, but today, I certainly don't envy chalkpie's dilemma about the choice he needs to make as starter Bruckner symphony cycle set.
In making the final decision for a complete Bruckner symphony set, don't forget to consider those sets that include the Symphony No. "0".
Barry, as an orchestral musician, do you have any particular preference for a well-performed Bruckner cycle?
Wade
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I'm not a fan of Jochum's Bruckner (either cycle) - owing to his accellerandos which undermine the structure, and rather diminish the slow movements' impact.
On a budget I would go for Wand (recently reissued cheaply I think) or Barenboim's Berlin Teldec cycle, which has very good versions of 5 and 9 (in fact this is my favourite Ninth).
The only snag is Barenboim's lumbering account of the Second Symphony (one of my favourites) which has a beautiful slow movement. Best version is Wakasugi's CD with the Saarbrucken Radio SO on the superbudget Arte Nova label. Otherwise Haitink, Chailly, Karajan or Giulini are fine.
Good point about the 9th on the Barenboim Teldec set, the scherzo is at an dramtically quick tempi, just the way I prefer, the playing is flawless also; When conductors drag this movement, it losses much in my view.
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At the moment, the Wand set is what I'm leaning towards. It's $20 (!) at amazon, and basically gets great to stellar reviews everywhere.
Right now I am listening to B8 on YT and loving it. I never thought that Bruckner was for me, and he was sort of an "inferior" Wagner or Mahler, but I guess I was wrong there. This guy is really bringing something substantial to the party. His orchestrations are not as masterful and detailed and Mahler from what I've heard thus far, but certainly not shabby and his sense of harmonic structure is outstanding. He also brings you to various places emotionally, like Mahler does.
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Anybody know the Wand set?
Günter Wand's final recordings of Bruckner with the Berlin Philharmonic are some of the best Bruckner available. His NDR-Hamburg recordings are also excellent for the most part. Unfortunately, the RCA budget set referred to above (recorded 1974–81) represents Wand's first stab at the Bruckner symphonies, with the Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester (he came to Bruckner rather late in life). I don't think his interpretations here are fully formed—they're nowhere near as impressive as his later ones from Berlin or Hamburg—and the engineering is nothing special.
I agree with akiralx about Jochum, which is why I didn't recommend either set. His interventionist approach regarding tempo (and dynamics) robs the music of it's power and nobility.
James
But it seems the Berliner recordings don't come in a complete box, correct? Only the Kolner Rundfunk set yes?
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But it seems the Berliner recordings don't come in a complete box, correct? Only the Kolner Rundfunk set yes?
Correct, but they do come in an incomplete box. Wand lived only long enough to record 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9 in Berlin, and you can now buy these five symphonies in a package for about $40.00 from an Amazon alternate seller.
Decisions, decisions...
James
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At the moment, the Wand set is what I'm leaning towards. It's $20 (!) at amazon, and basically gets great to stellar reviews everywhere.
Right now I am listening to B8 on YT and loving it. I never thought that Bruckner was for me, and he was sort of an "inferior" Wagner or Mahler, but I guess I was wrong there. This guy is really bringing something substantial to the party. His orchestrations are not as masterful and detailed and Mahler from what I've heard thus far, but certainly not shabby and his sense of harmonic structure is outstanding. He also brings you to various places emotionally, like Mahler does.
As a teen, I had a large 'history of music' in one volume, what it said about Bruckner made me arrive at a similar conclusion, it wasn't until my mid-twenties that I began listening to him. Bruckner obviously did have some difficulty perfecting such vastly complicated and methodically developmental works, who wouldn't. B8 is near flawless though. Sometimes all those famous Bruckner blairing brass moments make me plug my ears a sec. :)
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I second the high praise for Wand's late Berlin Bruckner recordings. But oddly enough, I prefer Barenboim's Chicago cycle to what little I've heard of his Berlin cycle. It seems to me that Wand was better at getting the Berliners to play with the sort of weight and heft that one usually associates with Chicago or Vienna. To my ears, the Berliners have always been better suited to R. Strauss' music than to Bruckner's. Compare, just for example, the results that Karajan got from the VPO in Bruckner 8 and 9, to the results he got in Berlin. However, I do think that the B7 that Karajan made in Berlin for EMI in the late '70s is pretty hard to beat. Anyway, to my ears, Barenboim's BPO cycle seems a tad 'light weight' in comparison to his earlier Chicago one. Also just a tad less consistent.
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I second the high praise for Wand's late Berlin Bruckner recordings. But oddly enough, I prefer Barenboim's Chicago cycle to what little I've heard of his Berlin cycle. It seems to me that Wand was better at getting the Berliners to play with the sort of weight and heft that one usually associates with Chicago or Vienna. To my ears, the Berliners have always been better suited to R. Strauss' music than to Bruckner's. Compare, just for example, the results that Karajan got from the VPO in Bruckner 8 and 9, to the results he got in Berlin. However, I do think that the B7 that Karajan made in Berlin for EMI in the late '70s is pretty hard to beat. Anyway, to my ears, Barenboim's BPO cycle seems a tad 'light weight' in comparison to his earlier Chicago one. Also just a tad less consistent.
Does this mean the Wand/WDR is the way to go?
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It wouldn't to me, unless you want a complete cycle with Wand.