Bruckner 8 (III, Adagio. Feierlich langsam, doch nicht schleppend)

[chalkpie]

wait:

Barenboim has 2 cycles? Chicago and Berliner?

Which one gets the nod?

What about Joshum?

What is considered the best sounding set out there?

[James Meckley]

1) Yes, Barenboim did two Bruckner cycles, Chicago and Berlin.

2) If I were getting only one of them and were concerned about sound, I'd get Berlin.

3) Jochum also did two cycles, one on DG with two different orchestras and one on EMI with Dresden. Neither of his sets sounds as good as the Barenboim Berlin set.

4) Dunno. If you want a cheap set that sounds good and does a decent job of representing Bruckner's music, just get the Barenboim/Berlin box and expand your collection from there. It's only twenty bucks!

Of course you may get other advice from other quarters.

James

[chalkpie]

Thanks again!

[Clov]

I've never heard the chicago cycle but it has its fans. I think the warner/teldec cycle is excellent and darned near flawless but it seems many don't think this to be the case, there seems to be much bias over Barenboim for some wide ranging reasons. There is also a digital set on the membran label which includes No. O and the Te Deum, it is an excellent cycle also though the conductor is almost completely unknown, it was and still is very affordable but lately the price has started inching upwards a bit. The old Haitink cycle would be outstanding if it had better bass, I'm not a person who nessesarily need a lengthy and winded B8, and in the old Haitink and Barnenboim/Warner sets you won't get them.

[akiralx]

I'm not a fan of Jochum's Bruckner (either cycle) - owing to his accellerandos which undermine the structure, and rather diminish the slow movements' impact. 

On a budget I would go for Wand (recently reissued cheaply I think) or Barenboim's Berlin Teldec cycle, which has very good versions of 5 and 9 (in fact this is my favourite Ninth). 

The only snag is Barenboim's lumbering account of the Second Symphony (one of my favourites) which has a beautiful slow movement.  Best version is Wakasugi's  CD with the Saarbrucken Radio SO on the superbudget Arte Nova label.  Otherwise Haitink, Chailly, Karajan or Giulini are fine.

[chalkpie]

Anybody know the Wand set?

[James Meckley]

Anybody know the Wand set?

Günter Wand's final recordings of Bruckner with the Berlin Philharmonic are some of the best Bruckner available. His NDR-Hamburg recordings are also excellent for the most part. Unfortunately, the RCA budget set referred to above (recorded 1974–81) represents Wand's first stab at the Bruckner symphonies, with the Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester (he came to Bruckner rather late in life). I don't think his interpretations here are fully formed—they're nowhere near as impressive as his later ones from Berlin or Hamburg—and the engineering is nothing special.

I agree with akiralx about Jochum, which is why I didn't recommend either set. His interventionist approach regarding tempo (and dynamics) robs the music of it's power and nobility.

James

[waderice]

The entire Bruckner repertory at this point in time is such that the choices are too varied and difficult to decide upon.  If I were a newbie to Bruckner as chalkpie is, and wondering about whether Bruckner is a good composer overall, I would be cautious about spending an unnecessary amount of money and narrow my choices to buy a set at a bargain price by a conductor who is regarded as doing a good job overall in performing the symphonies better than most everyone else, simply to get a flavor of how Bruckner ought to sound performance-wise, and not necessarily make sound quality a must in my choice, which should help in narrowing the field.

Though Bruckner wrote some powerful orchestral tutti, they do not quite approach the power and do not necessarily need cutting-edge recording technology (such as SACD) that Mahler requires for his works.  Years ago, I had only the now-outdated Haitink Philips and Jochum early DG sets as my two choices, but today, I certainly don't envy chalkpie's dilemma about the choice he needs to make as starter Bruckner symphony cycle set.

In making the final decision for a complete Bruckner symphony set, don't forget to consider those sets that include the Symphony No. "0".

Barry, as an orchestral musician, do you have any particular preference for a well-performed Bruckner cycle?

Wade

[Clov]

I'm not a fan of Jochum's Bruckner (either cycle) - owing to his accellerandos which undermine the structure, and rather diminish the slow movements' impact. 

On a budget I would go for Wand (recently reissued cheaply I think) or Barenboim's Berlin Teldec cycle, which has very good versions of 5 and 9 (in fact this is my favourite Ninth). 

The only snag is Barenboim's lumbering account of the Second Symphony (one of my favourites) which has a beautiful slow movement.  Best version is Wakasugi's  CD with the Saarbrucken Radio SO on the superbudget Arte Nova label.  Otherwise Haitink, Chailly, Karajan or Giulini are fine.

Good point about the 9th on the Barenboim Teldec set, the scherzo is at an dramtically quick tempi, just the way I prefer, the playing is flawless also; When conductors drag this movement, it losses much in my view.

[chalkpie]

At the moment, the Wand set is what I'm leaning towards. It's $20 (!) at amazon, and basically gets great to stellar reviews everywhere.

Right now I am listening to B8 on YT and loving it. I never thought that Bruckner was for me, and he was sort of an "inferior" Wagner or Mahler, but I guess I was wrong there. This guy is really bringing something substantial to the party. His orchestrations are not as masterful and detailed and Mahler from what I've heard thus far, but certainly not shabby and his sense of harmonic structure is outstanding. He also brings you to various places emotionally, like Mahler does.

[chalkpie]

Anybody know the Wand set?

Günter Wand's final recordings of Bruckner with the Berlin Philharmonic are some of the best Bruckner available. His NDR-Hamburg recordings are also excellent for the most part. Unfortunately, the RCA budget set referred to above (recorded 1974–81) represents Wand's first stab at the Bruckner symphonies, with the Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester (he came to Bruckner rather late in life). I don't think his interpretations here are fully formed—they're nowhere near as impressive as his later ones from Berlin or Hamburg—and the engineering is nothing special.

I agree with akiralx about Jochum, which is why I didn't recommend either set. His interventionist approach regarding tempo (and dynamics) robs the music of it's power and nobility.

James

But it seems the Berliner recordings don't come in a complete box, correct? Only the Kolner Rundfunk set yes?

[James Meckley]

But it seems the Berliner recordings don't come in a complete box, correct? Only the Kolner Rundfunk set yes?

Correct, but they do come in an incomplete box. Wand lived only long enough to record 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9 in Berlin, and you can now buy these five symphonies in a package for about $40.00 from an Amazon alternate seller.

Decisions, decisions...

James

[Clov]

At the moment, the Wand set is what I'm leaning towards. It's $20 (!) at amazon, and basically gets great to stellar reviews everywhere.

Right now I am listening to B8 on YT and loving it. I never thought that Bruckner was for me, and he was sort of an "inferior" Wagner or Mahler, but I guess I was wrong there. This guy is really bringing something substantial to the party. His orchestrations are not as masterful and detailed and Mahler from what I've heard thus far, but certainly not shabby and his sense of harmonic structure is outstanding. He also brings you to various places emotionally, like Mahler does.

As a teen, I had a large 'history of music' in one volume, what it said about Bruckner made me arrive at a similar conclusion, it wasn't until my mid-twenties that I began listening to him. Bruckner obviously did have some difficulty perfecting such vastly complicated and methodically developmental works, who wouldn't. B8 is near flawless though. Sometimes all those famous Bruckner blairing brass moments make me plug my ears a sec. 

[barry guerrero]

I second the high praise for Wand's late Berlin Bruckner recordings. But oddly enough, I prefer Barenboim's Chicago cycle to what little I've heard of his Berlin cycle. It seems to me that Wand was better at getting the Berliners to play with the sort of weight and heft that one usually associates with Chicago or Vienna. To my ears, the Berliners have always been better suited to R. Strauss' music than to Bruckner's. Compare, just for example, the results that Karajan got from the VPO in Bruckner 8 and 9, to the results he got in Berlin. However, I do think that the B7 that Karajan made in Berlin for EMI in the late '70s is pretty hard to beat. Anyway, to my ears, Barenboim's BPO cycle seems a tad 'light weight' in comparison to his earlier Chicago one. Also just a tad less consistent.

[chalkpie]

I second the high praise for Wand's late Berlin Bruckner recordings. But oddly enough, I prefer Barenboim's Chicago cycle to what little I've heard of his Berlin cycle. It seems to me that Wand was better at getting the Berliners to play with the sort of weight and heft that one usually associates with Chicago or Vienna. To my ears, the Berliners have always been better suited to R. Strauss' music than to Bruckner's. Compare, just for example, the results that Karajan got from the VPO in Bruckner 8 and 9, to the results he got in Berlin. However, I do think that the B7 that Karajan made in Berlin for EMI in the late '70s is pretty hard to beat. Anyway, to my ears, Barenboim's BPO cycle seems a tad 'light weight' in comparison to his earlier Chicago one. Also just a tad less consistent.

Does this mean the Wand/WDR is the way to go?