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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: John Kim on November 28, 2007, 05:33:38 PM
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David Zinman's Mahler cycle really hits its stride with this remarkable performance of the Third Symphony. It only has two small drawbacks worth mentioning. First, alto Birgit Remmert sounds pretty good in her big fourth-movement solo, but she's far less impressive during her brief contributions to the choral fifth movement. Perhaps this take came from another evening (the symphony was recorded during a series of live performances). Second, at the very end of the symphony, despite the very beautiful playing, the trumpets fail to ring out as Mahler's score directs. Better this glowing sonority than stridency, but there's no reason why we can't have the best of both worlds (Haitink's first recording with the Concertgebouw on Philips never has been surpassed in this respect).
Otherwise, this is pretty sensational. Zinman nails the first movement, from the creepy, gurgling sounds of the opening through a major-key march that has real brilliance and swing. There's not a trace of underplaying or that awful "Mahler lite" quality that sometimes afflicts today's performances (from Norrington to Abbado). The wild "mob" episode in the development section gives Bernstein (Sony) a very good run for his money, and the coda really rocks. The second movement offers particularly strong contrasts between slow and fast sections, making the music more dramatic than usual. In the scherzo Zinman takes the posthorn solos very slowly but varies the offstage perspective to create a fascinating interplay of texture between trumpet, horns, and strings. It's really special, and the same movement's coda never has been more colorfully shaped, with horns and trumpets tossing back their hunting fanfares in the spirit of the scherzo of Bruckner's Fourth Symphony.
As perviously noted, Remmert does well by her Nietzsche text in the fourth movement, less well in the fifth, but the latter features fine chorus-work and a vivid underpinning of bell sounds. Zinman's tempo for the finale (almost exactly 23 minutes) strikes me as ideal, not too fast but never dragging. The Tonhalle strings play very eloquently here, and the soft brass chorale before the final triumphant climax is truly luminous. In sum, this is a performance with a distinctive but idiomatic point of view that gives great satisfaction. The sonics in SACD multichannel format are good, but I still find that traditional stereo has the greatest impact, as it so often does. Mahler's Third is a tough work to hold together, but Zinman reveals himself here as a fearless Mahlerian who stands with the best.
--David Hurwitz
Still, to these ears this recording, as in Zinman's M2nd, sounds tamed and too cultivated compared to Bernstein, Kubelik, Horentsein, and Abbado (Vienna, not Berlin). The music calls for a wilder and bolder treatment, IMO.
John,
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Dave Hurwitz @Classicstoday. com gave the Zinman Mahler #3 a 9/9 (performance/sound - out of a possible 10) review. It's clear that he really enjoyed it. Here goes:
David Zinman's Mahler cycle really hits its stride with this remarkable performance of the Third Symphony. It only has two small drawbacks worth mentioning. First, alto Birgit Remmert sounds pretty good in her big fourth-movement solo, but she's far less impressive during her brief contributions to the choral fifth movement. Perhaps this take came from another evening (the symphony was recorded during a series of live performances). Second, at the very end of the symphony, despite the very beautiful playing, the trumpets fail to ring out as Mahler's score directs. Better this glowing sonority than stridency, but there's no reason why we can't have the best of both worlds (Haitink's first recording with the Concertgebouw on Philips never has been surpassed in this respect).
Otherwise, this is pretty sensational. Zinman nails the first movement, from the creepy, gurgling sounds of the opening through a major-key march that has real brilliance and swing. There's not a trace of underplaying or that awful "Mahler lite" quality that sometimes afflicts today's performances (from Norrington to Abbado). The wild "mob" episode in the development section gives Bernstein (Sony) a very good run for his money, and the coda really rocks. The second movement offers particularly strong contrasts between slow and fast sections, making the music more dramatic than usual. In the scherzo Zinman takes the posthorn solos very slowly but varies the offstage perspective to create a fascinating interplay of texture between trumpet, horns, and strings. It's really special, and the same movement's coda never has been more colorfully shaped, with horns and trumpets tossing back their hunting fanfares in the spirit of the scherzo of Bruckner's Fourth Symphony.
As perviously noted, Remmert does well by her Nietzsche text in the fourth movement, less well in the fifth, but the latter features fine chorus-work and a vivid underpinning of bell sounds. Zinman's tempo for the finale (almost exactly 23 minutes) strikes me as ideal, not too fast but never dragging. The Tonhalle strings play very eloquently here, and the soft brass chorale before the final triumphant climax is truly luminous. In sum, this is a performance with a distinctive but idiomatic point of view that gives great satisfaction. The sonics in SACD multichannel format are good, but I still find that traditional stereo has the greatest impact, as it so often does. Mahler's Third is a tough work to hold together, but Zinman reveals himself here as a fearless Mahlerian who stands with the best.
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"The music calls for a wilder and bolder treatment, IMO".
John, I keep telling you - recording after recording - turn your stereo up! It's plenty wild if you allow it to be. Furthermore, the beauty and the wildness is in the details. Many of these more recent recordings need a fair amount of boost. Otherwise, they can sound too tame; or even dull.
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Out of the recordings John mentioned above (including the new Zinman), I feel the Abbado VPO M3 is the strongest, I got a hold of a used copy and was blown away at the beauty, mystery and power of this M3...full of "wildness", especially in the first movement. I like the new Zinman M3 but it is not as spontanious as the Abbado, still the sound is very good.
--Leo
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I merged the two similar topics on this subject.
I'll admit that I have not listened to the M3 Abbado/VPO in a long while, but don't remember caring for it. I distinctly remember not liking the slow finale. Generally, I did not think very highly of any Mahler that Abbado did with the VPO (M2, M3, M4, M9). IMO, he was a better match with the CSO early in his career (M2, M6, and M7, although not necessarily M1, M5).
I am hoping that the new SACD of Lennie's M3 will spark me to tour my M3's, so that I'll be more "into" M3 the next time I listen to the Zinman one. I just got a shipping notice from HMV.jp on the three Lennie SACD's (M3, M4, M7), so hopefully I'll get to listen to them in a week or so.
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I look forward to your reviews Scott.
I resisted buying the Abbado VPO M3 for years, because the opinions I had read complained about certain aspects of sound, or the slowness of the finale. But I finally found a decently priced used copy and discovered this M3 to be incredible, and it has a unique sound too (not an audiophile experience, but a pleasing recording full of great detail). The first movement is the wildest and most confrontational I've ever heard! It soars, it growls and swirls, and then the enchanted quieter moments are captured with presence and atmosphere in the interesting production (not to everyones taste obviously)...indeed it is one of my favorite Mahler recordings in my whole collection.
--Leo
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I agree with Leo on the Abbado M3. I am still puzzled about what had happened at the very last note of I. As I have repeated pointed out, the last note of I. fades away so quickly in its volume and presence that I can only assume the DG engineers shut down their recording machine too early without waiting until it completely damped out. But other than this (very) small quibble I adore this recording very much. Along with the two Bernsteins, Horenstein, Haitink I., and possibly Levine this one ranks at the top in my book.
John,
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Oops! I forgot to include Kobayashi/CPO/Exton M3rd, the most beautiful and appropriately wild, extremley well executed and recorded version. So, here goes my list of great M3rds:
Bernstein/NYPO/Sony or DG
Haitink/RCO/Philips
Horenstein/LSO/Unicorn
Levine/CSO/RCA
Abbado/VPO/DG
Kobayashi/CPO/Exton
John,
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Those all seem like great picks to me, John. But I just can't share your preference for Abbado's earlier Vienna version over his Berlin remake. The Berlin one may not have the super loud (french)horns, or the wildly exaggerated dynamic range of the VPO one, but it's much more taut and lively in the last three movements. For me, Abbado turns too pious and "Catholic" sounding in the final three movements in Vienna. In the scherzo of his Berlin remake (third movement), Abbado whips the climax of the centrally placed, loud interlude into quite a frenzy. I really like that. The balances are generally better too, allowing more percussion and woodwind detail to fully register. More of the complexities of the work come through (as in Zinman's rendition as well). On the most basic level, the BPO clearly have the better percussion department. I do like Jessye Norman a lot, but I just think that she was put to far better use on the under-rated Ozawa/BSO M3. Ozawa certainly has a far better climax to the big, long brass chorale in the final movement; with just outrageous amplitude pumped out by his trombones at the final cymbal crash (as opposed to just loud horns).
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A different take on Zinman's M3:
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/4812/zinman3td7.jpg
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Same reply from me: turn it up! It's not lacking anything, in my book. I also don't like David Gutman as a Mahler reviewer in the least. Then again, that's just me.
He complains about the strings in the final bars of the sixth movement. They're simply playing tremelos - how loud do those need to be? It ain't Bruckner. Obviously, Zinman is intentionally holding the brass back in the final few bars. Mahler very clearly states: "not to be strident; but with a noble, saturated sound". At the symphony's concluding bars, the quality of sound is far more important than sheer amplitude. The moment for the brass to shine is clear back at the final cymbal crash. To me ears, that passage is excellent on the Zinman - superbly balanced between trombones, horns, and trumpets; all of whom are somewhat independent of each other. For me, the final few bars of the entire symphony is one of the big problems with Abbado/VPO: underplayed kettle drums, and somewhat strident trumpets - just the opposite of what Mahler asks for! Gutman should take the trouble to read what the composer wrote.
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For me, the final few bars of the entire symphony is one of the big problems with Abbado/VPO: underplayed kettle drums, and somewhat strident trumpets - just the opposite of what Mahler asks for! Gutman should take the trouble to read what the composer wrote.
To this day, I still think Abbado's VPO account sucks big time. BG's point above testifyes one of the reasons why I got so dissapointed when hearing this crap.
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To this day, I still think Abbado's VPO account sucks big time. BG's point above testifyes one of the reasons why I got so dissapointed when hearing this crap.
Give us a break. There are fans out there who still enjoy this recording; I've never called something I hate but others like 'crap'. :-\
John,
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. . and there are some moments in the Abbado/VPO M3 that are, indeed, exciting as all hell. The problem is that there are also plenty of moments where things just aren't up to snuff. It doesn't help that soft passages nearly disappear off the radar screen - a characteristic of very early digital recordings. I just think that Jessye Norman got put to better use on the Ozawa/BSO M3.
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John,
Sorry that I used strong language here. Didn't mean it that way.
I may try it again in the future but I am not gonna pay 30 USD for the sake of it..........
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I was listening to the Abbado VPO M3 again last night...I really believe this is a very impressive M3, and it may even become my top choice, the last three movements are so rich and devotional, radiant with peace, mystery and joy. I like the sudden turn into spirituality during the last three movements, more obvious than I'm used to hearing in this work, outlined in the tempos and soaring transparency in the execution of the VPO, especially in the strings. In particular I love the final chord, which seems to hang on forever, but I love the whole way the ending is played...it is not like other recordings, it is more reflective than I'm used to...which is wonderful and fits the concept of the whole performance. Bravo to Jesse Norman for such profound singing here, I really want to hear her in Ozawa's M3 one of these days (I hear she is on that recording as well?). I'm sorry it took me so long to buy this release...Abbado really surprises me sometimes, such as his Brahms BPO cycle.
--Leo
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Ditto!
...unless I am not me ;D
John,
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"In particular I love the final chord, which seems to hang on forever, but I love the whole way the ending is played...it is not like other recordings, it is more reflective than I'm used to...which is wonderful and fits the concept of the whole performance."
This is where I have to part ways with you and John. Yes, it's very devotional - perhaps even too devotional. But the problem is before the final chord: the trumpets get too screechy in quality, which is partly a bi-product of the upsurdly up close recording. On the lower end, the timpani are simply too soft and mushy in quality. They shouldn't sound like they're building a barn - like they do on Haitink/CSO and others - but they shouldn't sound almost non-existant as well. I also think that the final chord is excessively long, which - I have to admit - is better than it being too short. But I also have a problem at the climax of the long brass chorale. When the horns enter, they're magnificent! But before their entrance, the VPO trombones completely fall down on the job. Just compare the brass at the symphony's final cymbal crash - a couple of minutes from the end - on Abbado/VPO and Boulez/VPO (or even Maazel/VPO). The trombones are so much better on the Boulez/VPO one, with far better balances between the trombones, horns, and trumpets - all of whom dovetail the previous sub-section as they enter. The brass are even stronger on Maazel/VPO, but the tempo is excessively slow as well. While it may not be as unique, I think that the Boulez is clearly the most even handed, and technically best Mahler 3 from the Vienna Phil. so far. I also really like the extra brass line that Boulez adds towards the end of the "bim-bam" choral movement - I haven't heard that anywhere else.
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Guess what I got for Christmas? This recording!
I'm not through the sixth movement yet, but I have to say this recording is fantastic. Frankly, I was fearful the Tonhalle Zurich wouldn't have enough power or stamina to put this score across. But I really love the playing, sound, and interpretation. In particular, I find the second and third movements to be among the best I've heard. Honestly, I've never been a big fan of the second movement. But Zinman's interpretation won me over. It was serene, whimsical, fun, and fleet. The scherzo is usually a big litmus test for me, but once again, I was impressed. Tempos felt fast, but never rushed. When done poorly, this movement can plod until the cool eruption at the end. This one really moved in spots and reminded me of how this, like almost all of Mahler's Seventh Symphony is Nachtmusik. As for the end of the movement, I loved it: clear, but filled with impact. The harps, strings, timpani, and low brass, were fantastic. And I "heard" it in an inventive new way that seems quite different from anyone else's view. The fourth movement was quite fine. I'm a poor judge of voice, so I give a free pass to most. I see what Hurwitz was talking about regarding the vocalist in her 5th movement appearance, but I really expected worse. (My friend can't stand Martha Lipton in the Bernstein Sony M3. He uses the Austin Power's line, "She's a Man, Baby!" regarding the sound of her voice.) Somehow, I don't mind her or Remmert. So unto the final movement.
I guess what I love best about what I've heard so far is the detail. I'm hearing "new" things, like certain instruments, accents, etc. But the emotive impact isn't reduced.
Thanks for locking me onto this one guys!
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As I said in my customer review of the Zinman M3 at Amazon.com, this recording pretty much incorporates everything I've admired in nearly every previous recording. However, it doesn't have Salonen's added bass drum on the five five timpani strokes of the entire symphony (I like that touch). Nor does it have Boulez's added brass line (trumpets and horns) towards the end of the "bim-bam" choral movement. But I really like Zinman's handling of the posthorn (offstage trumpet) passages. Thanks for sharing!
Barry
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I've listened to this one again today. I am afraid I must stick with my initial impression. It is a well coordinated, well played and recorded M3rd, but somehow misses the boat, IMO. For one thing, Zinman is so careful in balancing every instrument evenly, executing every note in calculated dynamics that ultimately this recording sounds a bit flat and lacks character. I think the first movt, no matter how all the details were so well laid out (as Barry explained at length) suffers most. Again and again, I was longing for Bernstein, Horenstein, Levine, and even Kubelik, all of whom demonstrated successfully what Mahler really meant by saying "The symphony must be the world". Zinman's M2nd was even less impressive in these aspects, but he seems to be improving as the series continues. The generally soft grained Zurich orchestra doesn't sound like a particularly good Mahler orchestra in these recordings. They may better fit in playing Schubert or Wagner. Perhaps upcoming releases of their M5-M9 might change this impression.
John,
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We'll have to agree to disagree. I won't try to shout you down, John, regardless of how tempted I may be to do so. All I can tell is that on my equipment, these Zinman recordings don't come across as lacking visceral impact in the slightest. Far from it, in fact. You listen to what you want to listen to, and I'll be perfectly happy to try each issue of the Zinman cycle. If you're idea of great Mahler is slow tempi, excessively loud brass and loud kettle drums (Haitink/Chicago), knock yourself out. I think that's off the mark by a huge margin. I believe that the scores back me up on that, but everybody likes to criticize without ever even having looked at one.
I also think it's slightly funny that you conjure up Kubelik, because I think of the Zinman cycle, so far, as sort of the modern day equivalent of the Kubelik one. And on my system, the Zinman issues certainly have far better sound.
Perhaps forums like this have simply outlived their usefulness. Everyone has their own private Mahler. I'm becoming more and more tempted to just go enjoy mine on my own.
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Barry,
I agree that being able to bring out the technical details and lay out the musical elements in the score is very important in M3rd and perhaps we are living in a Mahler era in which such an asset may count more than anything else. In this respect, I rate the Zinman very highly. Still, my overall feeling is that "something" is missing in his music making. Maybe it's the orchestra, maybe it's the sound quality which I am not as impressed with as others are. It's rather difficult to pinpoint.
John,
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Sorry, I disagree. What more is there to say. If you think that the Abbado/VPO M3 somehow has better sound than the Zinman, than I know absolutely nothing about sound quality. Perhaps what's missing, John, is simply turning up the freakin' volume. I don't know.
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No, I don't think Abbado's Vienna recording sounds that great either. Anyway, we both agree Haitink I., two Bernsteins, Horenstein, Ozawa are great recordings ;D
Going back to the Zinman, I felt his first movt. was a tad too long - 35 min. Since he handled tempo relationships so well it still managed to hold. Still, it would have been better if he had tightened the movt. a bit down to say, 33 min.
John,
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OK, but now you're saying something objective, as opposed to your vague, "something's missing" routine. I can respect your preference for a shorter first movement. Zinman is very "contrast-y" with it - that much is true. But I also think that his funeral march rhythms are sehr deutlich (quite precise) - something that's simply not the case with the Abbado/VPO M3, by the way. That has about THE "mushy-est", most poorly defined funeral march rhythms imaginable. Even the trumpets don't play their rapid triplet figures together, much less clearly. Loud horns? . . it's got tons of that. But both the Boulez/VPO and Maazel/VPO M3 recordings have far stronger trombones. Just compare!
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But I also think that his funeral march rhythms are sehr deutlich (quite precise) - something that's simply not the case with the Abbado/VPO M3, by the way. That has about THE "mushy-est", most poorly defined funeral march rhythms imaginable.
You're quite right there. Zinman's is a rare case where the conductor gets the march rhythms perfectly right. I noticed that immediately and like his march immensely. It's pity that many others including the Abbado (I think Abbado's Berlin version is even worse) simply don't get them correct. Barry, please understand that my quibbles are all minor at this point because I am willing to delve into his M3rd more in the near future and I think I will appreciate it more at that time. However, I really can't warm up to Zinman's M2nd as much. I have to agree with DH's review for that matter.
Regards,
John,
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Barry,
Sorry, I must be thinking of the March section that comes after the slow funeral march passage as well;). As I said, I think Zinman's tempo in this march that leads to the stormy first climax is also really well done, with just a right contrast with the previous section and, a right amount of momentum. It's hard to find a recording that has these elements in a proper balance.
John,
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Zinman's M3 is a very complex and subtle performance...on some days it doesn't reach me, on other days it's the greatest M3 I've ever heard in my life. I don't quite understand this, but I actually find Barry and John's thoughts quite helpful in trying to pinpoint into words what I do like about this M3.
Actually, I now feel it has a Haitink-like construction, not tempo-wise, but a "willingness" to slowly build and reveal "all" in good time. On top of this process there is a Horensteinian (sorry to name drop here) ear for "color" and nuance.
All in all, this M3 has indeed grown on me over time.
--Todd
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"However, I really can't warm up to Zinman's M2nd as much. I have to agree with DH's review for that matter."
I never said that Zinman's M2 was one of the truly great ones. Kubelik's M2 wasn't either, for that matter. However, I was very vocal about the deep bells at the end of symphony, which I think are really terrific. I made the point that several of those same bells make their reappearance in the choral "bim-bam" movement of Zinman's M3. I think it's a nice touch that provides more contrast to sound of the triangle and glockenspiel at the end of the movement. A small point, to be sure.
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John,
I'm sorry that I've gotten so testy on this topic. As I look back, it's ridiculous that l let myself get worked up. I'm going through a number of difficult financial and family problems at this time. I shouldn't let those strains influence how I respond on this board. But I really do feel that Zinman's M3 is pretty good. After hearing his truly nice M1, I felt that he would do a good M3. However, there are certainly a good number of other, equally fine Mahler 3's out there - just as you pointed out.
Barry
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Barry,
No need to worry. Happily, I've been really warmed up to the Zinman M3rd for the past few days. When I increased the volume the sound became fuller, with lots of details coming through. In this recording Zinman's orchestra sounds like a perfect foil to RCO; they are smooth, precise and burnished. I wish Zinman took his time in IV. but the deep bells in the following movt. sound truly great. Neither too short, nor dragging, the final is another hightlight of this recording. I'd put it far ahead of Haitink/CSO, Zander, Lopez-Cobos, Litton, and many other recent ones, and the sound (heard at a high volume) is simply unbeatable.
I am also listening to Zinman's M2nd lately. I know there must be good reasons why you raved about this so am trying to find my ways to them.
Regards,
John,
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It's interesting about Zinman's M2 and M3...they really have a unique sound...and are always worth returning to.
I find Zinman's M2 and M3 quite thoughtful and subtle, only this time he does pull out the stops when needed. The architecture of the performance of each impresses on more listens. In both the playing is quite beautiful and radiant.
--Todd