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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: John Kim on January 21, 2007, 03:23:18 AM
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Has anyone heard it? It's available fro jpc but I heard the S&H fee there is outrageous. Where else can I order it?
I listened soud clips on one website. I could hear unusually prominent woodwinds in I. & II. which is very promising.
John,
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John,
So far, there's no indication that it's going to be a February release, here in the states. Warner is very slow with their releases. But they also release things without much pomp or ceremony.
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I feel Danny Boy falls delicately short in Mahler. I can't separate it from his Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, which fare better.
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I think his M7 is really good, from start to finish. To my find, his M5 is the best of the Chicago ones so far. That said, I do like how the tam-tam (large orchestral gong) is so upfront-sounding in the first movement's various funeral processions, on the Abbado/CSO M5. But for the rest of it, I prefer the Barenboim.
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I think his M7 is really good, from start to finish. To my find, his M5 is the best of the Chicago ones so far. That said, I do like how the tam-tam (large orchestral gong) is so upfront-sounding in the first movement's various funeral processions, on the Abbado/CSO M5. But for the rest of it, I prefer the Barenboim.
I found the close harp distracting in the Barenboim Chicago M5 recording. Overall, I much prefer Abbado with Berlin for both 5 and 7. I haven't heard the Barenboim 9. He has his Abbado work cut out for him there, too.
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Klassik.com (a German web magazine) has given this disc a score of 5/4. That is, 5 for interpretation and 4 for sound (5 is the top score).
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Klassik.com (a German web magazine) has given this disc a score of 5/4. That is, 5 for interpretation and 4 for sound (5 is the top score).
Uhmm...4 for the sound? That's strange considering how great the M7th CD by the same team sounds. But 5/5 for the interpretation is very encouraging. Like I said, from the audio clips available on internet I could hear woodwinds prominently and forwardly recorded - another very encouraging aspect.
John,
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Here is the review in German language. Perhaps Barry can translate (some of) it into English? It indeed gave 5/5 for interpretation, 4/5 for sound:
"Numerus est Omen, so ließe sich das sonst anders lautende lateinische Sprüchlein als Menetekel für Komponisten deuten. Nachdem Beethoven und Bruckner über die Neunerzahl ihrer Symphonien nicht hinausgekommen waren, zögerte der immer wieder gerne menetekelnde Gustav Mahler, seiner im Sommer 1909 vollendete Neunten eine Nummer zu geben. Durch einen kleinen, aber geschickten Selbstbetrug, nämlich, indem er dem ‚Lied von der Erde’ den Untertitel ‚Sinfonie für eine Alt- und eine Tenorstimme und Orchester’ gab, wollte er dem Schicksal gleichsam ein Schnippchen schlagen. Es hat ihm alles nichts mehr genützt: der Tod war schneller. Seine Neunte, wie auch das ‚Lied von der Erde’, hat er nicht mehr selbst uraufführen können.
Die Mahlerdiscographie der Berliner Staatskapelle unter Daniel Barenboims Leitung ist noch überschaubar. Die Symphonien Schumanns und Beethovens liegen komplett vor, und dies in herrlich energiegeladenen, plastischen Aufnahmen, während bislang lediglich die Siebte Mahlers auf CD erschienen ist. Dieser gesellt sich nun die 9. Symphonie hinzu. Man kann nur hoffen, dass Barenboim in Allianz mit der Berliner Staatskapelle sich bald auch den anderen Mahler-Symphonien widmen. Mit der Live-Einspielung der Neunten bringen sie frischen Wind in die all zu oft viel zu tragisch interpretierte letzte Symphonie Gustav Mahlers.
Keine Angst vor großen Zahlen
Oft, und erst recht in Einspielungen, hört man Gustav Mahlers 9. Symphonie im Gestus unausweichlicher Tragik und deutelnder Schicksalhaftigkeit, so als gingen die Dirigenten mit Mahlers unausweichlich gefühlter und gespürter Tragik geradezu schwanger und befänden sich bereits im neunten Monat. Georg Solti hat einst mit dem Chicago Symphony Orchestra die 9. Symphonie mit eben jenem tragischen Zug und mit dem expliziten Gestus des Abschiednehmens, gleichsam jenseitsgewandt eingespielt. Meines Erachtens ist dies nicht die Intention Mahlers gewesen. Nicht umsonst hat er in einem Brief an Bruno Walter seine Neunte als Pendant zur Vierten gesehen. Und dies bedeutet nicht zuletzt: Mahler hat in seiner 9. Symphonie Symphoniedramatik und Liedepik versöhnt und den überaus großen lyrischen Zug, der sich in den Sätzen konsolidiert, beinahe schon plakativ und sehr diesseitig ausgeformt.
Mit geradezu jugendlicher Energie
Daniel Barenboim klammert von vornherein alle vermeintliche Tragik der 9. Symphonie aus. Nur die Themen sind profunder und ernsthafter als in der ‚heiteren’ 4. Symphonie und deshalb sind für Barenboim auch hier das Lyrische und die liedhaften Momente oberste Prämisse. Wie schon in den Interpretationen der vier Symphonien von Robert Schumann ist Barenboims Dirigat äußerst energetisch im Spannungsaufbau der Phrasen. Und die formt er aus jedem weit aufgespannten Intervall heraus zu klangseligen Kantilenen. Die Konzentration auf das Liedhafte binnengespannter Phrasen verhindert das Abgleiten ins Rührselige oder gar Kitschige. Bei Mahler sind diese Grenzen außerordentlich fließend und ein Dirigent steht immer vor der Entscheidung, der Musik das Blut zu entziehen und sie gewissermaßen zu skelettieren, wie Pierre Boulez es so herrlich analytisch und musikalisch so hanebüchen vormacht, oder aber den Puls anzutreiben, blutdrucksteigernd wie Bernstein ‚seinen’ Mahler interpretiert hat. Völlig kann auch Barenboim diese Pole nicht ausgleichen. Auch bei ihm ist das Schwanken zwischen detailverliebter Partiturexegese, Vordergründigkeit und profunder Lyrik deutlich zu hören.
Und dennoch: das Boulez’sche blockhafte Sezieren vermeidet er ebenso wie die musikalisch zelebrierte Selbstaufgabe. Das Lyrische bricht sich am Ende bei Barenboim Bahn und es ist geradezu genial, wie er und die Staatskapelle Berlin es fertig bringen, den Bogen zwischen dem dezidiert liedhaft genommenen ersten Satz über die klangdetailliert ausgeschöpfte, derb und täppisch, wie von Mahler gefordert, ausgelotete Vordergründigkeit und Naivität des zweiten Satzes und der grotesken Rasanz des dritten Satzes hin zum Abschiednehmen des letzten Satzes zu spannen. Eine Musterbeispiel dramatischer Steigerung und umso bewundernswerter, als es sich hier um eine Live-Aufnahme handelt. Die Staatskapelle Berlin überzeugt durch bestechend homogenes Stimmgruppenspiel und folgt Barenboims sich dramatisch steigerndem Aufbau in runder, plastischer Dynamik und sich enorm steigernder Intensität des Spiels hin zum letzten Satz. Dort scheut zwar auch Barenboim den dicken Pinsel des Emotionalen nicht, doch das musikalische Abschiednehmen Mahlers wird hier zu einem Abschiednehmen nicht vom Leben selbst, sondern von der Welt des Lyrischen. Man höre nur die letzten Takte! Die Staatskapelle evoziert hier keine Mahler’sche Todessehnsucht. Hier wird Abschied genommen von der Essenz der Musik Mahlers: vom Lied.
Barenboims energetische, frische und überzeugende Lesart von Mahlers 9. Symphonie – empfehlenswert."
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Here's a Babelfish Translation. Generally these are not helpful for something of this length, but here ya go!
http://babelfish.altavista.com (http://babelfish.altavista.com)
Number est Omen, then otherwise differently reading latin Spruechlein than writings on the wall for composers could be interpreted. After Beethoven and Bruckner had not out-come over the Neunerzahl of their Symphonien, again and again gladly the menetekelnde Gustav Mahler, its hesitated in the summer 1909 completed ninth a number to give. By a small, but skillful self fraud, i.e., by giving the sub-title "symphony for an old and a tenor voice and orchestra ' to the" song of the earth ', it wanted to strike the fate as it were a Schnippchen. It was useful to it all nothing more: death was faster. Its ninth, like also the "song of the earth ', he no longer could urauffuehren. The Mahlerdiscographie of the citizens of Berlin state chapel under Daniel Barenboims line is still visible. The Symphonien Schumanns and Beethovens is present completely, and this in wonderful energy-loaded, plastic photographs, while so far only the sieved Mahlers appeared on CD. This associates now the 9. Symphonie in addition. One can only hope that Barenboim in alliance with the citizens of Berlin state chapel dedicate themselves soon also to the other Mahler Symphonien. With the live-einspielung ninth they bring into those all to often much too tragically interpreted last Symphonie Gustav Mahlers to fresh wind. No fear of large numbers Often, and only quite in bringing in, one hears Gustav Mahlers 9. Symphonie in the Gestus of inevitable Tragik and deutelnder Schicksalhaftigkeit, so as if the conductors with Mahlers inevitably felt and felt Tragik went almost more schwanger and would already be in the ninth month. George Solti has once with Chicago Symphony Orchestra the 9. Symphonie with evenly that tragic course and with the explicit Gestus of the parting taking, as it were beyond-turned brought in. My judgement this was not the intention Mahlers. Not in vain he saw his ninth in a letter at Bruno walter as counterpart to fourth. And this means not least: Mahler has in its 9. Symphonie Symphoniedramatik and song spades reconciles and the extremely large lyric course, which consolidates in the sentences, almost already plakativ and very this-laterally formed out. With almost juvenile energy Daniel Barenboim clasps from the beginning all alleged Tragik of the 9. Symphonie out. Only the topics are more profunder and more serious than in the "cheerful ' 4. Symphonie also here and therefore are for Barenboim the lyric and the songful moments highest premise. Like already in the interpretations of the four Symphonien of Robert Schumann Barenboims Dirigat is extremely energetic in the structure of tension of the cliches. And it forms Kantilenen from each interval stretched far to sound leagues. The concentration on the song-clung of within-strained cliches prevents a gliding in the agitate-blessed or Kitschige. However with Mahler these borders are flowing extraordinarily and a conductor always stand before the decision to extract from the music the blood and them to a certain extent skelettieren, as Pierre Boulez it hanebuechen so wonderful analytically and in music in such a way interpreted before-made, or the pulse to propel, like amber "its ' Mahler blood pressure-increasing. Completely also Barenboim cannot adjust these poles. Also with it is varying between Partiturexegese detail-in love to hear Vordergruendigkeit and profunder lyric poetry clearly. And nevertheless: he avoids Boulez' blockful dissecting just like those celebrates in music self task. The lyric breaks at the end with Barenboim course and it is almost ingenious, as it and the state State of Berlin it completely brings, the elbow between the decidedly songful taken first sentence over sound-details exhausted, crudely and taeppisch, as by Mahler demanded to stretch plumbed Vordergruendigkeit and Naivitaet of the second sentence and the grotesque Rasanz of the third sentence for the parting taking of the last sentence. Example of dramatic increase and all the more admirablly, as it concerns a live-aufnahme here. The state State of Berlin convinced by captivatingly homogeneous play of group of being correct and follows itself Barenboims dramatically increasing structure in round, plastic dynamics and itself enormously increasing intensity of the play to the last sentence. There also Barenboim does not shrink from the thick brush of the emotional one, but the musical parting taking Mahlers becomes here a parting taking not of the life, but of the world of the lyric one. One hears only the last clocks! The state chapel evokes here no Mahler' death longing. Here parting taken from the Essenz the music Mahlers: of the song. Barenboims energetic, fresh and convincing Lesart of Mahlers 9. Symphonie - recommendable."
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Nice to know that a computer program can't translate much better than I can. Maybe I should challenge one to a chess match. Obviously, "Berlin State Chapel" and "state chapel" are the English translation for Staatskapelle.
Basically, the reviewer seems to be praising this for its faster tempi, but doesn't come out and just say that. He likes the energy of it, and likes that it's a more songful approach. Nowhere does he mention the Rondo-Burlesque, and neither does he particularly discuss the sound quality, which someone said that this reviewer had given 4 out of 5 stars.
I don't pretend to be an expert on German at all. But you can obviously see the pros and cons of the long compound words that they love to construct and use in serious discussions. I could wrong about this, but I think that the long compound words help to compensate for the complexity of the grammer.
My guess about this recording is that it's a Czech Phil. job, in terms of tempi, but with more intensity.
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Hallo,
I had just written my comment on this when I read the translation and Barry's comments. So I can state, that the sound is good and that I like the Rondo-Burleske very much.
I wouldn't praise the concert for its tempi, but simply because they fit! And it is correct: It's a bit like Neumann, but more intense (see below).
And you are right. us Germans really like to create like long words. Then, in order to translate them to English, we use "-" and "-" again and again, since we cannot believe that they can be expressed in single words.
That's my comment:
The Barenboim M9 actually came out as a pre-release at iTunes on December15th.
This was just one month after the recording at November 15th. I bought it immediately, since I was happy to be at the Berlin “Philharmonie” on that occasion.
During the performance it was clear that it was a performance with quick tempi and very vivid playing. In addition to the usually very good strings of the Staatskapelle, the woodwinds and the brass were emphasized a lot (there were a few flaws (not on the CD), but anyway). This was e.g. apparent in the third movement, exemplary showing how “modern” Mahler was. Double-bass on the left, it went back and forth.
For me, who I don’t often have the chance to see high-end live performances, it was interesting, that the brass sounded relatively “rough”, but on the recording – even smoothed – the attitude of the concert and the live sound come over (sound 4/5 for the CD is okay I think). Maybe that’s one difference to the Neumann-recording, where the whole playing has a bit more “understatement” (by the way, I like the Neumann box more and more, just the brass).
After all, I like this recording, not only because I have been “there”, but because of the lively playing.
The Staatskappelle is on tour in preparation for the Mahler fest in April. In January they played M3 with Pierre Boulez in the Philharmonie. Timing was similar to his recording, a few difficulties in the brass parts – but the first and final movement showed what kind of music this is!
Before the concert there was an interview with Boulez in the "Süddeutsche Zeitung" and he stated that he - in his own compositions - is particularly interested in the separation of the orchestras into single groups or players. Having heard his M3 or Barenboim's M9 in view of his is very interesting.
Michael
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Vielen dank, Michael. It sounds as though Barenboim's M9 will be one of the stronger single-disc (one disc) recordings of the piece.
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I took another look at the German critics, not at the translation. It is positive, okay, but it is really an example of German critics.
I really tried to translate some interesting parts and for some words used my huge dictionary, but it sounds crazy. But you can be sure: it sounds nearly that crazy in German too:
Die Konzentration auf das Liedhafte binnengespannter Phrasen verhindert das Abgleiten ins Rührselige oder gar Kitschige.
The concentration on the song-like of inner-stretched phrases prevents the gliding into the kitsch. (M: That’s typical German critics: many words, no contents).
Ein Dirigent steht immer vor der Entscheidung, der Musik das Blut zu entziehen und sie gewissermaßen zu skelettieren, wie Pierre Boulez es so herrlich analytisch und musikalisch so hanebüchen vormacht,
A conductor has to decide either to draw the blood out of the music in order to get the skeleton, as Boulez shows so wonderfully analytic and musically strange (M: in the sense of crazy, totally across to everything which makes sense (hanebüchen), really that’s what's there in German, he is wonderful and hanebüchen)
oder aber den Puls anzutreiben, blutdrucksteigernd wie Bernstein ‚seinen’ Mahler interpretiert hat.
…or to drive the pulse, blood-pressure increasing as Bernstein interprets his Mahler…
Völlig kann auch Barenboim diese Pole nicht ausgleichen. Auch bei ihm ist das Schwanken zwischen detailverliebter Partiturexegese, Vordergründigkeit und profunder Lyrik deutlich zu hören.
Also Barenboim cannot totally balance these poles. Also his wavering between love-to-detail interpretation of the score (exegese: much stringer than only interpretation), superficiality and profound lyric can clearly be heard (M: note the superficiality for later)
Und dennoch: das Boulez’sche blockhafte Sezieren vermeidet er ebenso wie die musikalisch zelebrierte Selbstaufgabe.
But nevertheless, he prevents the Boulez’ block-wise dissection as well as the musically celebrated self-abandoning.
>> And now it comes:
Das Lyrische bricht sich am Ende bei Barenboim Bahn und es ist geradezu genial, wie er und die Staatskapelle Berlin es fertig bringen, den Bogen zwischen dem dezidiert liedhaft genommenen ersten Satz über die klangdetailliert ausgeschöpfte, derb und täppisch, wie von Mahler gefordert, ausgelotete Vordergründigkeit und Naivität des zweiten Satzes und der grotesken Rasanz des dritten Satzes hin zum Abschiednehmen des letzten Satzes zu spannen.
Finally the lyric forces its way with Barenboim and it is nearly genial, how he and the Staatskapelle manage to draw the bow
between song-like taken first movement via the sound-detailed bale-out, crude and clumsy (as required by Mahler) going-to-the-bottom superficiality (M: what is a deep superficiality?) and naivety of the second movement and the grotesque speed of the third movement to the farewell of the final movement.
I stop, its too much and I am not a translator.
Michael
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Thanks alot Michael for translating these review comments...it's really helpful.
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Micahel,
May thanks for your translation and welcome to the board.
Your description sounds like this is going to be another pretty good M9 CD. My favorite singe disc versions of this symphony are Svetlanov/het Resiedente Ork, Neumann/CPO/Canyon, Ancerl/CPO/Suphraphon, and Ashkenazy/CPO/Extion. But if Barenboim's can offer interpretation and sound within a mile of what he has done for M7th, this will be my new favorite. In this regard, can you say if this one resembles Barenboim's M7th CD in any way?
John,
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John,
It’s interesting to hear about your favourites. I know and like the Neumann and have read that Ancerl’s M9 is good, but I haven’t heard it as well as Ashkenazy (ever) conducting Mahler. And I don’t know Svetlanov (and I have a dozen M9’s).
Regarding your question: In my opinion the sound and the attitude of Barenboim’s M7 and M9 are similar. It’s the same kind of fresh playing, very transparent. Today I could see that the Staatskapelle is touring in Germany and Europe and perform M3 and M6 with Boulez and M5, M7 and M9, DLvdE with Barenboim nearly day by day (today Brussels). In view of the coming Mahler fest it is surprising that they simply took the second performance of all these concerts for the M9 recording.
Michael
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Svetlanov's M9 is a fast performance, but with a super fast Rondo-Burlesque; it's less than 11 minutes long. The playing of the Residente Orkest (they're from The Hague) is pretty darn good.
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I already tried to find it, but particularly the Svetlanov M9 seems to be no longer available (neither here nor in the US).
Michael
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Michael,
Please see my personal message that I sent this morning and reply.
Best,
John,
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Talking about M9 recordings: Has anybody ever heard the BIS M9 by Barshai? It is available at some online stores now and the timing is definitely on the faster side: 25:38, 16:22, 13:08, 20:54. The orchestra is the Moscow Radio Symphony Orchestra, apparently in 1992.
Michael
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Do not waste your money on this one. It's OK but with so many excellent recordings out there - Chailly, Bernstein, Ozawa, Levine, MTT, Svetlanov, Neumann - it's not really competitive. The playing is at best adequate and the sound is rough. Barshai's interpretation is nothing special; his main interest seems to be getting it over with. I know Barshai has done some good Mahler, e.g., M5 & M10, but not this one.
John,
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Whats the Ozawa M9 like?
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Ozawa recorded the work twice, once with BSO (Philips) the second with Saito Kinen Orch. (Sony). Both are excellent; his trademarks in this symphony are crisp, elegant and alert playing, clear delination of many polyphonic lines, a unique structure in which the 1st movt climaxes are a bit scaled down (purposefully) compared to the slow but intense passages and the finale's climax that is perfectly balanced against the rest of the movt. In fact, under Ozawa the Finale sounds just right, neither too short nor long (26 min), achieving a rare sense proportion and architecture. No that he lacks passion and ardor; they are there when required. David Hurwitz said he had never heard a better orchestral playing in this piece when Ozawa & BSO toured and played the symphony in NY. The Sony recording boasts the same features but the playing of the Japanese orch. isn't at the same level as BSO. The Philips CD is available only in the complete cycle set.
John,
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I listened to the M9 Barenboim/SK Berlin last week over a couple of different sessions in my car. I had hoped to immediately type some first impressions, but was unable. So here goes:
I feel that most of my other M9 listenings over the last several months have had longish outer movements of perhaps 28+ minutes or so. So right off the bat, the tempos that Barenboim uses strike me as fresh and different. The woodwinds are indeed very forward throughout the performance, adding to my sense of rediscovery. In terms of the first movement, some of the negatives that I noticed are that certain tempos strike me as slightly rushed, the tam-tam at the climax is covered up (but this could have been exacerbated by car noise), and in the final bars, the held solo brass note is too forward. All in all, though, a very enjoyable first movement. IIRC, Abbado/BPO/DG has a similarly timed first movement, but Barenboim seems be both faster and slower in certain sections.
The second movement just sounds too fast. There does not seem to be any difference among the trio sections, which, if done properly, should get faster as the movement goes along. Here, they start out fast, and really have nowhere to go. However, the playing is still splendid, so the movement still works.
And here is where my memory is failing me -- For the most part the R-B is well played and aggressive enough, but the percussion at the end is inconsistent. The finale seems to have all of the same pluses and minuses as the opening movement -- solid playing, enjoyably forward woodwinds, but some tempos that strike me as being a little rushed (not at the very ending section though). Again, though, my complaints about the tempos are certainly biased by all of the longer M9's to which I've recently listened. This is an M9 to which I will return soon.
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Scott,
I'd agree with most of your assessment but would add that the sonics on this CD is disappointing. This is particularly frustrating when one remembers the excellent sound quality of their recent M7th recording. Recorded live, it is congested, opaque and lacks details. You said about the ending of I.
"...the held solo brass note is too forward."
The instrument you're referring to is actually a woodwind (oboe?). I too was surprised that it was held at such a high level. Still, I like Barenboim's finale which despite the short timing sounds just right. Also, in the inner movts. he has woodwinds playing louder than normal adding much freshness and excitement.
John,
John,
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Scott,
I'd agree with most of your assessment but would add that the sonics on this CD is disappointing. John,
John,
I forgot to mention the sonics. The first movement indeed sounded congested to me. The sound seemed to improve after that, but perhaps I was just acclimated to the sonics by that time.
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It's a shame because the performance is fine and has a few things going for it. Why do engineers record live if they don't have confidence in what they are doing? To save cost? Considering live recordings sound as good as studio recordings these days, I really think the sound quality on the Barenboim M9th should have been better.
John,