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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: sperlsco on December 09, 2007, 05:19:17 PM
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One word to describe these new re-releases -- ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS! ;D ;D (yes, I know that was two words)
There is no sense in discussing the performances, except to say that the M3 is as close as I get to an absolute top choice in any Mahler symphony, while both the M4 and M7 are easy top tier selections of mine.
So, is it worth paying full price + international shipping charges to get these from Japan -- Absolutely! These releases are an absolute revelation in terms of sound. The sound is sharp and three-dimensional, while individual instruments are distinct and well-articulated. There is very little, if any, congestion in the tutti's and very little stridency in the sound. The main thing that is missing is the real deep impactful bass (i.e. deep bass drums), but bass is much tighter than on the CD releases. These are 5 channel releases, but the rear channels are used only for a small amount of ambient sound, which probably adds just a little three-dimensionality.
I found it interesting that in the M4 finale, Reri Grist's voice sounds like it is anchored in the center channel, but every bit of it is coming from the front-left, front-right speakers. It is rather strange that the sounds cuts off quickly at the end of some of the movements (M3-1, M3-6, M7-5 are very noticeable). I also noticed a very minor sound problem at 4:49 of M4-3, where there is a digital-noise/electrical buzz sound (lasts less than a second).
I will be getting much enjoyment from these SACD's over the holidays.
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Thanks for the report! If I wasn't knee deep in Christmas bills, I'd be treating myself to these. If I can ask, what store did you get them from? Did they seem to have the best deal?
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Wow! I am tempted to get them right away. But I am more interested in the M2, M6, and M9. Has anybody tried these?
John,
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I bought these from HMV.JP. I did not do any price comparisons, as I believe that Japan is the only source for these recordings at this time. Amazon.JP and perhaps Tower.JP would be other alternatives, but I have never purchased from them. I find the HMV site (English version) very easy to navigate.
I may consider purchasing the M6/M9 3-disc set sometime next year, along with the DLvdE.
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All of the new SACD Lenny/NYPO/Sony Mahler Symphony discs are on ebay right now - the current price is $340.00:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Leonard-Bernstein-Sony-Japan-SACD-hybrid-Mahler-CDs-new_W0QQitemZ230201399871QQihZ013QQcategoryZ307QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
John,
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... Actually, $340 for 16 SACDs from Japan isn't all that bad, if I can buy them at the price now :(
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These are beginning to trickle into the US. Amazon has a few of them, although the price is high. Arkiv has the first at a reasonable price. I would hope that the entire SACD box set would show up in the US. For me, the price is still too extreme.
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Yes, the HMV.jp price (including International shipping) is still much cheaper than Amazon.com or CDUniverse.
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The set says it contains Das Lied, but I wasn't aware of a Columbia Das Lied.
Anybody know about this?
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It's with the Israel Philharmonic and I believe it's live. Christa Ludwig and Rene Kollo are the singers, if I'm correct. Even among Bernstein fans, it isn't rated too highly, but I'd love to hear someone sing its praises. I think the main deterrent may be the sound. Anyone care to comment on its merits?
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I bought the entire set for myself, also from HMV. It arrived on the 24th. So far I have listened twice each to M1 thru M4. I am astounded by the sound quality, especially when compared to the earlier "Bernstein Century" releases. There is a large gain in clarity, soundstage and dimension.
For reference, I am listening to the Red Book layer only through headphones - no SACD equipment here.
Yes, the set is expensive, but so far it appears to me to be worth it.
Trio
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Trio,
Thanks for the report.
Please let me know how the M6th and M9th sound in this new format.
John,
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John -
Listened to the 9th this morning. Astounding sound quality. I'd be interested in understanding how they improve 40+ year old master tapes that much. It is a more dramatic change than from a typical remastered recording. It adds a clarity and depth, plus, for me, almost a sense of being in the audience of a live event.
I also did an A-B comparison of the "Bernstein Century" (CD) release of the first movement of the 6th to the new release. Did the first few minutes of each back and forth a few times. Again, the difference in SQ is significant.
Hope this helps.
Trio
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Trio,
The improvement you speak of is from listening to the CD layer only? I have to get this set, even though the wife will shoot me.
Oh well, you have to die from something...
BTW-In terms of improvement in sound I felt the same way about this famous Bernstein recording after getting the SACD. Simply amazing what they did with it compared to the Bernstein Century Edition.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CK5KP8RHL._SS500_.jpg)
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I'd bet that even if you listen to the 2 channel CD layer you'd hear a significant improvement. This is because they normally do a remastering when they prepare in the SACD format. For example, Chailly's RCO M9th sounds decidedly better on the CD layer of its SACD disc than on the regular CD version. There is no doubt that the Japanese engineers had done a digital remastering to this analogue tapes, so we should expect improvements regardless of the format.
John,
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Trio,
The improvement you speak of is from listening to the CD layer only? I have to get this set, even though the wife will shoot me.
Oh well, you have to die from something...
BTW-In terms of improvement in sound I felt the same way about this famous Bernstein recording after getting the SACD. Simply amazing what they did with it compared to the Bernstein Century Edition.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CK5KP8RHL._SS500_.jpg)
Yes, this one is also fabulous in terms of sound, and of course performance.
As for the Lennie/Israel PO/Ludwig/Kollo DLvdE, I believe that the DVD performance (now out on DG) and the CD one (a Sony release) are one and the same. The old Sony CD has shallow, congested, and harsh sonics -- and I never really enjoyed it. I enjoyed the recent DVD release much more, but I am not certain whether or not I can attirbute that simply to the visual impact. I will be purchasing the DLvdE and a few more of these later in January (when the Macal/Czech PO M9 comes out).
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The Bernstein/Isreal Phil. "DLvdE" is actually quite good. But it's another performance that's greatly undermined by the incredibly dry acoustics of Tel Aviv's Mann Auditorium. As expected, Ludwig and Kolo are really good. Then again, they're both really good on the Karajan "DLvdE" as well.
Barry
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I ordered the 6th and 9th today. Couldn't hold back after reading about the improvement in sound quality. I'm probably the only one here who feels this way, but Bernstein's NY 9th is my favorite 9th overall, and I will be in heaven hearing it as if for the first time with the new remastering.
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As for the NYPO M9th, there have been three CD editions so far based on three different remasterings. All sound different (anyone with sensitive hearing capability can tell). I must say I prefer the very first CD that came out in early 80's before CBS became Sony. The worst is the second one, namely, "Bernstein Royal Edition". This CD sounds as if it is based on a second generation copy of the original session tapes; individual instruments are not well focused, dynamic range is limited. The latest one, "Bernstein Century" has cleaned-up sound with increased clarity but it's all at the expense of dynamic range - there isn't enough dynamic extremes between soft and loud passages. I once purchased Japanese edition of the sixth combined with the ninth on 3 discs (this CD box looks exactly the same of the current 3 SACD discs for the same programs). Sadly, they sounded pretty much like the Royal edition. I just hope that they did a completely new remastering for these SACDs.
John,
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The latest one, "Bernstein Century" has cleaned-up sound with increased clarity but it's all at the expense of dynamic range - there isn't enough dynamic extremes between soft and loud passages. I once purchased Japanese edition of the sixth combined with the ninth on 3 discs (this CD box looks exactly the same of the current 3 SACD discs for the same programs). Sadly, they sounded pretty much like the Royal edition. I just hope that they did a completely new remastering for these SACDs.
John,
That's how I felt about the Bernstein Century M3. It hardly sounded like it was recorded in Manhattan Center anymore. I ended up getting it on LP and it sounds like Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic again. I'm almost ready to go crazy and purchase these on SACD, but I'll wait for a little more assessment from my fellow Mahlerites.
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The three disc set of containing the M6 & M9 arrived today, and I have to say...OMG!
Thie sound quality is such an improvement. It's truly amazing. A/B comparisons show the new SACD to be so superior that it's hard tp believe they are the same sessions from the 60s.
In the first movement of the 9th I hear bows clicking, chairs creaking, a cough I'd never heard before. It's as if you're sitting next to one of the mics at the session.
The bowing of the strings, the separation of the instruments, the harps, bells. All sound SO much better and clearer.
Granted, I may have an advantage over you guys in that I'm listening to this on a super hi-fi system, consisting of my Sony CD Walkman and $15 Sony ear buds ;D (wife and four year old son are watching Disney movies in the family room tonight. Will have to try SACD layer out later).
The CD layer alone gets a huge thumbs up. Just ordered M2 from the same guy tonight before posting here.
Expensive, but if this set is one of your favs spring for your favorite M symphony and get ready to be blown away. Then be ready to take a loan out to get the rest after you hear the improvement. All classic sessions should receive this kind of treatment.
Yes. It's that good.
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Ditto!
I've listened to the CD layer of this M9th SACD and must agree with what everyone else was saying. The strings in particular sound unusually sweet and velvety. In general, the sound has become so much warmer. There is also more separations between the instruments, more space around them, and clearer, cleaner perspectives. As a result of all the improvements and changes, Bernstein's reading comes as less aggressive and warmer then ever before. Alas, the horn trills at the second climax in I. are still barely audible, a mistake that was corrected in Lenny's two later versions with BPO and RCO, and the dynamic range is somewhat compromised compared to CBS's very first remastering, but what it has gained in this new remastering far outweighs. One thing to note. The cover says the DSD mastering was done by Andreas K. Meyer, a name that sounds like an American. So, hopefully these DSD remastered SACDs will someday reach USA or Europe.
John,
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Wow...thanks for the reports gentleman!!!
--Todd
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Strangely, I don't hear that much of improvement in the M3rd and M6th....actually with all the gritty details clearly audible this remastered M3rd (again on its CD layer) sounds very aggressive in the first movement. But I am writing this based on casual listening...I must give another try.
John,
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I agree there seems to be more improvement in sound in the 9th than the 6th. Maybe this is because the 9th is softer in sound overall, where the 6th is an all-out attack for the most part? ???
Do an A/B listen with the phones if you get a chance. I can hear the difference right away in the first movement (especially the much fuller sound).
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BTW- I'm listening to this now at work on my ipod nano (much easier to use while working than a CD player). MP3s encoded at 320. A/B comparison here is the same, although the MP3s obviously don't sound as good as the actual disc.
On the way to work I sampled the SACDs in the car. Same results: definite sound improvement.
This is a winner all the way around.
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I now agree that this M3rd SACD has much improved sound. Unlike the M9 SACD it sounds rather aggressive and hard with all the improvement in dynamic range. Its crowning finale has always been hailed as one of Lenny's finest and I wholeheartedly agree. That movt. alone is worth paying $$ for. It is a great M3rd indeed. Quite an achievement for them (relatively) young Lenny.
John,