gustavmahlerboard.com
General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: merlin on December 02, 2008, 11:35:50 PM
-
After more than a dozen years, I have begun listening to Mahler's symphonies again, after discovering a carton of discs hidden away in the garage.
I of course wanted to love, or at least like, all of them, but unfortunately my experience was a mixed bag. Here are some details about each.
M1 - Bernstein/Concertgebouw/DGG - loved it!
M2 - Rattle/CBSO/EMI - enjoyed the outer two movements very much, but the rest was basically boring. I thought that better sonics might improve things so ordered Fischer/BFO/Channel Classics SACD.
M3 - Horenstein/LSO/Unicorn - mostly good, and the last movement was fantastically moving.
M4 - Maazel/VPO/CBS Masterworks - boring.
M5 - Bernstein/VPO/DGG - enjoyed the first and fourth movements.
M6 - Barbirolli/NPO/EMI Classics - fantastic! Ordered Bernstein/VPO/DGG to see if I would like it even more.
M7 - Bernstein/NYPO/DGG - unmoved by it.
M8 - Segerstam/DNRSO/Chandos - mostly excellent, but definitely dragged in the middle of the second part. Also there was lots of digital glare. I ordered Wit/WNPO/Naxos.
M9 - Bernstein/BPO/DGG - wonderful. Since I did not know when the trombones were supposed to come in, I did not miss them!
M10 adagio - Segerstam/DNRSO/Chandos - wonderfully moving, but same digital glare as M8.
So I am wondering if anyone might comment and/or make suggestions of other versions that I might explore?
-
I'll offer these (some off-the-beaten-path) alternatives to consider
M1 - de Waart/Minnesota
M2 - Blomstedt/SFO, Jansons/Oslo
M3 - Zinman/Tonhalle
M4 - Chailly/RCO, Levi/ASO
M5 - Shipway/RPO
M6 - Farberman/LSO, Boulez/VPO
M7 - Halász/Polish NRSO, Bertini/Köln
M8 - Wit/Warsaw (you have that one), Bertini/Köln
M9 - Giulini/CSO, Sinolopi/Philharmonia
M10 - Chailly/Berlin RSO
The Welte-Mignon Piano Rolls - Mahler on recording piano
Russ
-
I listened to M9 today, the second day in a row, and was even more impressed than yesterday. It has to be one of the most moving and expansive pieces of music ever, along with LvB9.
Since I love this version (Bernstein/BPO), are there others, in addition to Russ' suggestions, that I might enjoy equally?
I have read some good things here about Chailly's RCO SACD.
-
I listened to M9 today, the second day in a row, and was even more impressed than yesterday. It has to be one of the most moving and expansive pieces of music ever, along with LvB9.
Since I love this version (Bernstein/BPO), are there others, in addition to Russ' suggestions, that I might enjoy equally?
I have read some good things here about Chailly's RCO SACD.
(http://www.esounds.com/esounds/img/packshots/5099950123155-lf.jpg)
This is an excellant M9, near the top of my list right now...I particularly love the pacing, and the execution of the BPO...incredible and passionate M9.
Chailly is another good choice as well...I am not as familiar with the Chailly yet, but I got the SACD version, and I'm going to listen soon.
--Todd
-
Chailly and Rattle are both very good suggestions. I wouldn't write off the live Karajan one. It has a lot of intensity in all four movements, which isn't always the case. on the Bernstein/BPO Mahler 9, I just wish that the trombones weren't missing at the climactic passage of the fourth movement. That pretty much spoils it for me.
Barry
-
In my continuing re-exploration, I just finished listening to M5. Wow!
The passion, excitement, sensitivity, and intensity Lenny brings to Mahler is astounding. For me, this is how it should be played.
And whilst the SQ is very good, I wish that DG would have reissued these performances as SACDs.
-
Don't just stop at the Adagio of the 10th! A whole world awaits with the completed versions. Ormandy/Philadelphia, Sanderling/Berlin SO, Litton/Dallas, Gielen/SWGerman Radio.... some to start with!
-
Don't just stop at the Adagio of the 10th! A whole world awaits with the completed versions. Ormandy/Philadelphia, Sanderling/Berlin SO, Litton/Dallas, Gielen/SWGerman Radio.... some to start with!
But is this Mahler any more than the second part of the Requiem is Mozart?
I will always admire Toscanini for stopping in the first perfomance of Tosca and announcing to the audience, with tears streaming, "This is where the maestro died."
-
Mahler's 10th was left in such a state that the basic outline and orchestration of the uncompleted music could be discerned. Mostly missing was orchestration and fleshing out of the music from the short score. None of the completed versions could claim or do claim for that matter to be exactly as Mahler wished. Of course, any completion of an unfinished work is by definition a compromise, and the 10th in its several versions, is just that, a compromise. But to ignore it one misses a great deal of fabulous music and an incredible musical experience.
Just my 2 cents.
Just to clarify, the Toscanini quote was about Turandot not Tosca.
-
In my opinion, it's far more complete than the Mozart Requiem.
-
@Don - Thanks for the Turandot clarification. I am about as far from a fan of opera as can be, so really would not know the difference between the two!
As for the Mozart Requiem, whilst I very much enjoy listening to two different versions -- the one completed by Sussmayr, which is most well-known, and the other more recently by Robert Levin -- it is all-too-obvious where Mozart left off.
But given what Barry and you said about M10, I am bound to give it a go. Which version would be best, for starters?
-
@Don - Thanks for the Turandot clarification. I am about as far from a fan of opera as can be, so really would not know the difference between the two!
As for the Mozart Requiem, whilst I very much enjoy listening to two different versions -- the one completed by Sussmayr, which is most well-known, and the other more recently by Robert Levin -- it is all-too-obvious where Mozart left off.
But given what Barry and you said about M10, I am bound to give it a go. Which version would be best, for starters?
Which M10 to start with? Hmmm...a great question. My first complete M10 was the Chailly (using the Cooke II edition?), and after hearing this performance I was truly amazed and became addicted to this work. Ater the Chailly I found the 1st Rattle M10 (with Birmingham), which is pretty great to.
I'd say start with the Chailly, and then find the Litton/Dallas which uses a vastly different edition, the controversal Carpenter edition, which for many around here is at the top of their M10 lists.
Eventually you's want every editon and recording though...it's like Kurosawa's Rashomon...every point of view is needed to flesh out the story! There is more than one witness!
--Todd
-
Thanks for the suggestion, Todd. I put Chailly M10 on my wishlist at MDT.
Now Rashomon, that's one great film!!! What you see depends upon where you stand.
-
Thanks for the suggestion, Todd. I put Chailly M10 on my wishlist at MDT.
Now Rashomon, that's one great film!!! What you see depends upon where you stand.
Good choice. Chailly uses the Cooke II version. If you approach M10 with the same idea (What you hear depends upon where you stand.), you will enjoy the M10.
-
Chailly M10 arrived in this afternoon's post, and I listened to it immediately. I found it interesting and very moving in parts, especially knowing about Gustav discovering Alma's affair with Gropius whilst writing this piece, and his ability to transcend the feelings of betrayal.
It does seem that more percussion in places would make it more Mahlerian, so to speak, but all in all, a worthwhile experience.
Thanks to Don and others for the recommendation!
-
Chailly M10 arrived in this afternoon's post, and I listened to it immediately. I found it interesting and very moving in parts, especially knowing about Gustav discovering Alma's affair with Gropius whilst writing this piece, and his ability to transcend the feelings of betrayal.
It does seem that more percussion in places would make it more Mahlerian, so to speak, but all in all, a worthwhile experience.
Thanks to Don and others for the recommendation!
Glad you enjoyed the performance! The Chailly M10 is very moving, and got me interested in this work in a profound manner. I believe the Carpenter edition fills out the percussion more liberally than Cooke, as do Samale/Mazzuca in their edition (on the Sieghart/Arnhem/Exton SACD release)...these are great editions.
--Todd
-
I don't want to forget Mazzetti's fantastic 1st version of his performance edition...from Leonard Slatkin:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51svzRzw0%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
This is my top M10 at this time...this nearly broke me down when I heard it again recently. I also love the Carpenter (Litton/DSO) and the Seighart disk I mentioned above.
For another beautiful sounding Cooke, the vintage Ormandy/Philly is wonderful (he uses Cooke's official first version of his edition), .
God I love the M10.
--Todd
-
Ditto, Todd!
--John H
-
Just as a further explanation to explain why Todd and I shout out our appreciation for M10, do you remember how I described my October visit to Cincinnati to hear Gilbert Kaplan conduct M2? I told how his pre-concert lecture on Mahler was the first lecture that had ever provoked me to tears. Kaplan did a Powerpoint slideshow, accompanied by music from Mahler symphonies to support his points.
When he was describing Mahler's heart-breaking grief at the possibility of losing Alma, he followed with a comment about it being an auditory expression of Munch's painting, "The Scream." Next he played a heart-wrenching excerpt from M10. As I seized my handkerchief to pat my eyes dry, I was delighted to see dozens of others in the lecture audience in a similar state of tearful emotion. My wife noticed a crack in Kaplan's voice as the emotion of sharing Mahler's grief overcame him a bit too.
Often since then, I've wished Kaplan would record his lecture, but I'm sure it has more dramatic impact when you hear it live. Please, if you ever have a chance to attend a Kaplan concert and lecture, do not miss it. I'd go back every night to share the love and appreciation of these great masters--Mahler and Kaplan.
--John H
-
Slatkin (Mazzetti) M10 has gotten some very mixed reviews, especially about the deficiency of his conducting. It sounds as though the version would be quite interesting in that there is more brass and percussion, and a more persuasive finale.
But does Slatkin mess this up enough that it would be annoying?
Also, the CD seems to be OOP.
-
Slatkin (Mazzetti) M10 has gotten some very mixed reviews, especially about the deficiency of his conducting. It sounds as though the version would be quite interesting in that there is more brass and percussion, and a more persuasive finale.
But does Slatkin mess this up enough that it would be annoying?
Also, the CD seems to be OOP.
Trust me, this performance is highly underrated...I find Slatkin to be quite inspired here. Nothing drags, the tempos for the scherzos define these unfinished movements in a convincing pattern. The dynamics are very wide, great contrasts throughout. In terms of drama and beauty of playing, the Finale here is the most moving in all my versions of the M10 (and I have just about all of them). Perhaps Mazzetti's edition helped inspire Slatkiin, also Slatkin has been very interested in the M10, even contemplating his own edition at one point. Barry agrees this is a very good M10. Of course, the M10 is open to many different views, and because of this, there is always something to be gained by hearing another version (whether a different edition or conducter), some say Rattle owns this work, yet Rattle's is no definitive view by any means, he has the excellant BPO, but he sticks to the Cooke. And I would rather hear Wigglesworth when it comes to the Cooke.
Another M10 worth checking out, is the fantastic Carpenter edition as led by Litton and the Dallas Symphony...which I believe is still in print. I bought the Slatkin from an Amazon seller for about 9 bucks, so I would check that source for the Slatkin. Any of these will be an interesting listen...many on the board highly recommend the Litton/Dallas disk.
(Merlin, I sent ya a PM)
--Todd
-
Ah another M 10 convert!
The Litton Carpenter is the most effective of the non Cooke editions. I have never warmed to either of Mazzetti's versions, find the Samale/Mazzuca version a bit over done (I hate that they mess with the Adagio), consider the Wheeler a mere curiosity and don't think Barshai's improves on the earlier versions. Cooke III seems to have become the most prevalent version.
Sanderling and the Berlin SO did a wonderful Cooke II with some effective touches in the percussion. It is still available and is one of my favorite overall performances.
Even in the barest Wheeler version, one can still hear the drama, pathos, power and the voice of the master in this masterpiece of symphonic music.
-
Ah another M 10 convert!
The Litton Carpenter is the most effective of the non Cooke editions. I have never warmed to either of Mazzetti's versions, find the Samale/Mazzuca version a bit over done (I hate that they mess with the Adagio), consider the Wheeler a mere curiosity and don't think Barshai's improves on the earlier versions. Cooke III seems to have become the most prevalent version.
Sanderling and the Berlin SO did a wonderful Cooke II with some effective touches in the percussion. It is still available and is one of my favorite overall performances.
Even in the barest Wheeler version, one can still hear the drama, pathos, power and the voice of the master in this masterpiece of symphonic music.
The Sanderling is one I have not heard yet actually...thanks for the reminder.
As for the Wheeler, I much prefer Olson's 1st recording from Colorado!
--Todd
-
The Sanderling is worth checking out. And the MahlerFest recording is quite good and still available from them, I believe.
Olsen teaches here in KC, but does little Mahler with the UMKC orchestra... damn it.
-
But does Slatkin mess this up enough that it would be annoying?
Merlin, don't be scared off the Slatkin just because of varying opinions.
For me, the Slatkin is an excellent and well-conducted and performed version.
--John H
-
Sanderling and the Berlin SO did a wonderful Cooke II with some effective touches in the percussion. It is still available and is one of my favorite overall performances.
Of the Cooke versions that I own, the Sanderling is my favorite by far.
I picked up the Olsen/Mahlerfest perfornance of Wheeler's version in Boulder early this year, but need to listen to it a few more times to form an 'educated' opinion of its merits vis-a-vis Cooke.
Mike Bosworth
-
Just wanted to give a simple reason in support of M10 as valid.
Which is that nobody else could possibly have somposed what Mahler did in it.
Ivor
-
Re:M10
Todd once asked us to list works that we found haunting.
I always think of the haunting, sometimes spooky sounds of M10's third movement, Purgatorio.
Has anyone else found it that way?
--John H
-
"I always think of the haunting, sometimes spooky sounds of M10's third movement, Purgatorio.
Has anyone else found it that way?"
Absolutely. Apparently, the title comes from some poem or novella, having to do infidelity. The author of the poem has been identified, but I forget who it was. It's interesting that in each of Mahler's five-movement symphonies - M5, M7, and M10 - the middle movement gets progressively shorter. It's an astonishingly effective movement that lasts less than 5 minutes!
-
I have a fondness for old recordings, Merlin, so here are a few.
1. Mitropoulos. Full of ideas. Plentiful rubato.
2. Stokowski,'63. Fairly amazing. So full of personality.
3. Kondrashin. Refreshing.
4. Sejna. A charmer.
5. Walter. First version I had. Due for a rehearing.
6. Adler. ditto. Superbly-paced opening.
7. Horenstein. Makes everything sound right.
8. Boulez. Started to get on good terms with 8 with this performance.
9. Horenstein. Always interesting.
10. Rattle/Bournemouth. The Bernstein of our day.
LE/SE. Klemperer. I like it serious.
There are any number of conductors others mention a lot that I haven't reached, and I'm ready now for a little splashing out.
PS. The most haunting moment of 10 for me is the first emergence of that flute tune early in the finale. Might try a poem about it.
Ivor
-
Just read through this thread, that mostly discuss the different versions of M10, and am somewhat surpriced that the Barshai version has not been mentioned. Cant pinpoint exactly what it is, but for me this is the M10 that I most often reaches for. As an Opera buff, I also dislike the ending of Turandot, simply because it is so obvious when Puccini is no longer the composer. A lot of the different performing versions of M10 have the same effect on me, but not the Barshai. It sounds more coherent. Also, crank up the volume and hear the nine note dissonans played as Mahler must have wanted it. It rips out your intestines. This could be the result of the recording date; september 12. 2001 (live) In addition you get a faboulos M5, almost free, from Brilliant Classics with fantastic sound.
Steen
-
I like Barshai's effort the least of any, except for maybe Wheeler's. But that's not the point. The point is, no other work by Mahler is so open to "interpretation" and personal predilections than the 10th. If it works for you, that's all that matters. That's because of the incomplete state in which Mahler left the work. For me, Barshai adds way too much bric-a-brac pastiche filler - in terms of the orchestration, that is - without addressing what I feel are some of the more major issues of the work. Like Mazzetti, he focuses too much on the "small stuff" for my liking. But that's my point: I'm discussing in terms of "my likings", and not something definitive that Mahler himself wrote.
-
I see what you mean, and of course we don't have to focus on the non-Mahler stuff.
I like to think I concentrate on the Mahler stuff, and there's a lot of it in this amazing 10th, that I wouldn't want to be without.
Ivor
-
I've had some time lately to listen to my Mahlers on my Zune. I decided to revise my previous posting to this thread from last December on re-exploring Mahler to the following (additions are in bold):
M1 - de Waart/Minnesota, Honeck/PSO
M2 - Blomstedt/SFO, Jansons/Oslo
M3 - Zinman/Tonhalle, Salonen/LAPO
M4 - Chailly/RCO, Levi/ASO, Vonk/SLSO
M5 - Shipway/RPO, Abbado/CSO (Dale Clevenger is rock-solid in the Scherzo)
M6 - Farberman/LSO, Boulez/VPO, Mackerras/BBC Phil
M7 - Halász/Polish NRSO, Bertini/Köln, Barenboim/Berliner Staats.
M8 - Wit/Warsaw, Bertini/Köln, Gergiev/LSO
M9 - Giulini/CSO, Sinopoli/Philharmonia, Mund/KSO
M10 - Chailly/Berlin RSO, Harding/VPO
The Welte-Mignon Piano Rolls - Mahler on recording piano
Although originally offered as a list of alternatives, I suppose this really is becoming my A-list.
Some of my new entries, e.g. M1 & M8, were released within the last year so I confess that technically they can't be re-exploring candidates.
Some new-to-me acquisitions e.g. M4 & M7, compelled me to displace some fine predecessors.
However, some of my old stand-bys, e.g. Salonen's M3, Abbado's CSO/M5 & Mackerras' M6, have insistently restored their favor.
In some cases, e.g. M1, M8, M9, and M10, my new acquaintances were instantly appealing additions.
Lastly, though I have Eschenbach's M2 (& Mehta/VPO, Bertini, Zinman, etc.), I haven't been motivated to revise the Blomstedt & Jansons entries. Each has its a shortcoming, but overall they remain convincing to me.
-
Russ,
It's interesting you mentioned Sinopoli/PO/DG M9th CD.
Sinopoli's rendition is certainly INTERESTING. He seems to want to emphasize the neurotic, schizophrenic elements in the music at all costs. This means he has to occasionally sacrifice the flow and logic but he does this very convincingly without really reaching the extremes. I know many folks expressed that the Philharmonia Orch. doesn't have a good Mahler sound. But in this recording, magnificently captured by DG, they sound fabulous. Listen to the golden, galvanized brass in the outer movts. and you'll see what I mean.
Anyway, I have yet to acquire the Honeck/PSO/Exton M1st. ;D ;) :'(
John,