Author Topic: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...  (Read 18669 times)

Offline Jeff Wozniak

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2008, 05:24:55 PM »
I'll take the other point of view and state that I particularly like the baritone in this piece.

Also, in regards to good versions of this work on SACD it appears we are forgetting Reiner's RCA, which, IMO,  is more than "satisfactory", and also has the soprano that so many here seem to prefer.


Cheers,

Woz
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 05:36:03 PM by Jeff Wozniak »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2008, 03:42:05 AM »
I completely agree with that (Reiner's "DLvdE"). Although, I haven't tried the SACD layer on it. Hurwitz gave it a very good review at Classicstoday, so it certainly has his endorsement.

Barry

Offline sperlsco

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2008, 04:34:13 PM »
SO FAR my question "What's wrong with the Boulez/VPO issue?" has received two kinds of answer:

1) "I just don't like it"/too "boring." (But didn't someone just stress the need to separate mere subjective opining and personal preference from the more factual reasonings?)

2) What we hold against Boulez is that he doesn't follow the apparently dubious dynamic markings where no one else sees any reason to do that, either. (Great...)

So we are to conclude that there appears to be nothing wrong with this recording.

-PT

Well, I don't believe that anyone needs to write (or re-write) a full review of the Boulez DLvdE in this thread.  You can visit Classics Today to read Dave's review.  Also, you can probably find some other impressions (both positive and negative) in the archives of this site.  Finally, BG provides an example of a section that he feels is not done well by Boulez.    Please feel free to post what you like about it and move on.  I fully expect that there will be others that like the Boulez recording.  Let's please try not to insult people, though.
Scott

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2008, 07:31:05 AM »
Well, I lied. All this chit-chat has primed me for the upcoming MTT/SFSO/Hampson "DLvdE". I look forward to it with bated breath (what the heck is a bated breath anyway?), and predict that it'll be the greatest thing ever to have arrived in our own lifetimes. As they say in hyphy culture, "bring it on".

Polarius T

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2008, 11:19:05 AM »
Herr Polarius,

Barry, I'm not German, as you know. Strictly speaking I'm not even Indo-European.

By and large, both David and myself have been pretty supportive of Boulez's Mahler. I like most of them. I had some real issues with the DG studio release of M2, but I felt that the "live" performance issued on DVD addressed all those issues (especially the organ). David was probably the first critic to be supportive of his M4 with Cleveland, which was - up to then - receiving luke warm reviews at best. Now everyone seems to think that it's pretty good. I've always been a big fan of his M6 from Vienna.

That's all fine and dandy; but I thought we were talking about DLvdE in general and then I was referring to Boulez' recording of it.

 
You seem to keep coming on to this notion of European vs. American critics (maybe it's just David you're after).

Sorry, what?? I was not, nor am interested in, talking about anything else here except DLvdE as a composition, and by extension the Boulez recording of it. I think you may have misattributed an earlier post by DH where he brought up this issue of how "Europeans" this and "Europeans" that, in a discussion on Abbado IIRC.

Well, let me make a generalization that seems to apply to many critics in general, regardless of where they come from. Many critics say that such-and-such artist is great; therefore, everything that he or she have recorded must also be great. Both David and myself attempt to evaluate every recording on its on merits, regardless of who the performers are. You may not get that impression, but take a look at some of the reviews that David has written for Boulez's Mahler cycle - most of them are quite positive.

Again, that's really great if it really works that way, and likewise if people get something out of Boulez' Mahler, but I'm not sure what the specific issue is that you have in mind here.

My aim was to try and start talking about the peculiar nature of this very composition and the kind of expectations it sets for the performers and especially the conductor. Those two only; not what DH may have written about Mahler elsewhere (it's really irrelevant for me). I think it's useful to start from the nature of the work itself when assessing the different interpretations. It's also a more constructive approach than the "bores me to death"/"not exciting enough" type of dismissals made when we feel jaded and something doesn't conform to preformed expectation patterns: one is then forced to focus more on the "meaning" of the work and people's successes in letting that meaning or significance come through, in contrast to mere lists of whom one does and doesn't like in a long list of CD titles (which can of course also be fine and is certainly always fun, but then let's keep the rhetorics clear about that, too). I like the way many people here post in precisely this fashion, "positively" so to speak, as for instance Todd above who made what I thought was a valid and illuminating point, something worth elaborating on in my view.

As for myself, I believe that I addressed your question as objectively as I can, without repurchasing the Boulez "DLvdE" (no way is that happening) to comb through it point by point. You asked the question, I provided my answer. It would be an adaquate "DLvdE", if we lived in a world of few choices. But as with all of the works by Mahler these days, there are tons of choices to comb through. I'm wondering if you're familiar with Bertini's "DLvdE" (?)... 

That's fine, and I didn't mean by "objections are faulty, not the performance" point be meant to be taken without a little smile. I do disagree, there's nothing wrong in that, right?

I haven't heard the Bertini yet. I'm piqued to hear him but am hesitating a bit due to the feedback he's gotten in some (wow, got to use that suspect word) European press; there is simply so much good music left that I haven't gotten time to focus on but is more than worth exploring, and I'm no longer unconditionally willing to invest my time and effort in listening to everything out there any more. That said, I think I'd hear the Bertini if I had a chance. Here's a suggestion: I'm perfectly willing to swap the Klemp B8 that you "owe" me to the Bertini DLvdE, if you think it's more worth hearing.

Singers do matter in this work, and I feel that "der Abschied" should not be treated as an extended operatic aria.

That's of course all true; and nor should the composition as a whole be treated as a series of ballads or as orchestral Lieder.

The question as to whether Urmana is the right kind of voice for "der Abschied" or not, is greatly compounded by her having been recorded too closely. I find it uncomfortable to listen to, and that has nothing to do with which speakers, or which headphones I'm using.

I can't put my finger on this since we hear her pretty differently here. Could it be her clearer-than-normal phrasing (combined with clearer-than-normal articulation of the rest of the score) that gives the impression of the voice's being "too close for comfort"?

-PT

Polarius T

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2008, 11:47:59 AM »
The fact that we may be speaking in generalizations, as you well know, does not mean that there is not substance to back them up if necessary, and it is this that distinguishes fact from opionon.

Sure, it just wasn't there above, and that's all I was referring to. You keep saying that I just have to take you by your word, but I don't want to get into a broader debate here; all I said was that in the foregoing there was no answer given to my question of what's wrong with that one performance if anything. (That Boulez is not doing what no one else is not doing either, regarding the indicated dynamics that you yourself say are moreover ambiguous at the very least, would not qualify as a dismissal, obviously; and if you feel he is a bore would not really, either.) A more valid response would have to state how he distorts the spirit of the work or something along those lines.

Echoing another sentiment of Barry's I would ask the question more directly than he did: Which recordings of this work do you actually own, or have listened to recently? What are your bases for comparison?

As I meant to say above I'm not really interested in giving scores to different performances as if they were athletic performances (this is definitely a 10/10, that gets no more than 2/5 from me and for sure isn't threatening the position of the former that's still in the lead, etc.), but more in looking about performances through what I think is the prism of the composition itself (not always the same thing as the printed score, however: in addition to the more "empirical" listening, checking on whether the performance is accurately organized in terms of the aural reproduction of the written notes, there is also the more "philosophical" listening that tries to focus more on the "spiritual" purport or profile of the work -- what makes it living art for us). But if a list of names is what you think is of interest, here's what I try to bear in mind when thinking of "Das Lied":

Boulez obviously
Sinopoli
Walter with Miller and Haefliger
Walter with Ferrier and Patzak
Klemperer with Ludwig and Wunderlich
Levine with Norman and Jerusalem
Haitink with Baker and King
Giulini with Fassbaender and Araiza
Karajan with Ludwig and Kollo
Bernstein with Fischer-Dieskau and King
Kubelik on Audite (talking about a "bore," I thought...)
Davis with Norman and Vickers
Fassbaender and Moser with Katsaris on the piano

I may have owned or thematically listened to others too which I don't remember now, whatever that might say about those particular recordings. (I've gotten rid of a lot of CDs over the years and still have some stored away.) It also depends on what "recently" means for you. And I don't mean to have ordered them in any particular way.

Now are you guys thinking of posting your own "lists" for viewing or something?

-PT

Polarius T

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2008, 11:56:31 AM »
Polarius,

Oh boy, that picture must have been taken at a Korean reasturant, wan't it? :o

John,

Good spotting, John; you may be right. I did think that that might have been a dollop of kimchee or something right there in the background.

It's not my own photo, and I couldn't find what I was looking for: what frequents on my grill is what in these parts they call spirrmakrill: it's a bit smaller and I think fattier specimen (not the same as the big mackerel) that wanders to the territorial waters here (up to the river mouth not far from where I live in fact) during June and July, tastes really wonderful done in almost any imaginable way (though I have a few nice recipes in case cooking's your pastime, too), and looks something like this:



I just wanted to get some outdoors grill feeling into the image I used, for realism...

-PT

Polarius T

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2008, 12:05:34 PM »
Well, I don't believe that anyone needs to write (or re-write) a full review of the Boulez DLvdE in this thread.  You can visit Classics Today to read Dave's review.  Also, you can probably find some other impressions (both positive and negative) in the archives of this site.  Finally, BG provides an example of a section that he feels is not done well by Boulez.    Please feel free to post what you like about it and move on.  I fully expect that there will be others that like the Boulez recording.  Let's please try not to insult people, though.

I think I wasn't addressing my comments to anyone in particular, only summing up a general pattern emerging from all the posts above. So I'lll not go spend time there on CT if I may. And I can understand if the feeling is that further discussion about the Boulez recording of it, even if strictly in the context of the very work itself, might be off the original topic (Tilson Thomas), so I'll post separately about that shortly in a new thread. (Though I'm not really interested in any full "reviews" of any particular recordings, really.) Or do you mean only posts about newly issued recordings (or their reviews on CT) are encouraged? I think it's fine to have more general discussions about specific works and how they ought to be performed.

-PT

« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 03:35:00 PM by Polarius T »

Offline Dave H

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2008, 02:18:34 PM »
Just to get the facts straight, there is an extensive review of the Boulez Das Lied on CT.com, but it was not written by me. I only covered the multi-channel version in a breif couple of paragraphs. We do have about a dozen writers (including one BG, on occasion!), and Victor Carr covered the Boulez. Actually, Victor liked Urmana (as did I in Der Abschied), but agreed that Boulez's contribution was distinctly sub-par. Certainly you are not obligated to read anything on CT.com, and I don't think anyone said you should, except to the extent that you are making claims (concerning my work, for example) the untruth of which is a matter of public record should you care to investigate.

I think the broader point is that folks here tend to operate from a certain base of shared knowledge that makes discussion more efficient, productive, and interesting. Obviously this varies widely from person to person. It includes reading books, reviews (whether mine or anyone else's) as well as a very broad experience of recordings. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it is the depth and breadth of this knowledge, and the enthusiasm with which it is shared, that makes this group unique.

I think Barry was gently suggesting, as was I when I asked which recordings of Das Lied you used as your basis of comparison to Boulez, that it would be nice to know what, if any, Mahlerian substance supports your verbal rhetoric.

Dave H

Polarius T

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2008, 04:01:26 PM »
Just to get the facts straight, there is an extensive review of the Boulez Das Lied on CT.com, but it was not written by me. I only covered the multi-channel version in a breif couple of paragraphs. We do have about a dozen writers (including one BG, on occasion!), and Victor Carr covered the Boulez. Actually, Victor liked Urmana (as did I in Der Abschied), but agreed that Boulez's contribution was distinctly sub-par. Certainly you are not obligated to read anything on CT.com, and I don't think anyone said you should, except to the extent that you are making claims (concerning my work, for example) the untruth of which is a matter of public record should you care to investigate.

I think the broader point is that folks here tend to operate from a certain base of shared knowledge that makes discussion more efficient, productive, and interesting. Obviously this varies widely from person to person. It includes reading books, reviews (whether mine or anyone else's) as well as a very broad experience of recordings. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it is the depth and breadth of this knowledge, and the enthusiasm with which it is shared, that makes this group unique.

I think Barry was gently suggesting, as was I when I asked which recordings of Das Lied you used as your basis of comparison to Boulez, that it would be nice to know what, if any, Mahlerian substance supports your verbal rhetoric.

Dave H

Right, and you may note that I have not once talked about your opinions about "Das Lied," to get more facts straight (except anonymously as part of a summary characterization of a broader set of responses), so I've hardly been able to make any claims about them, either. I only noted your criticism made here in this thread that in the Boulez certain dynamic markings aren't observed, which you then admit no one else you know of observes, either.

And thanks for enlightening me (us?) that reading is fundamental (indeed, and also here), as is listening :o. But I guess that will only increase my curiousity as to what, if any, basis you yourself have for discussing Das Lied, to support your own verbal rhetoric, as you put it. May I gently suggest you be a bit more open about that, too? I'm curious to see if my list of names qualifies as "Mahlerian substance," or not really, or sometimes yes, sometimes no, depending, compared to other people's, given this concern for the extent of such lists. Then we can even do the same with the readings if you like!  :)

Thanks in advance.

Actually, the kind of "ranking list" type of listening which I think you are after here (with those questions about how many recordings I own, etc.) and in which a massive number of different recordings are juxtaposed to one another and put in one relatively straightforward order with the help of some singular, arbitrary scoring mechanism (a bit like what Robert Parker has done in quantifying wine taste) is not at all the only valid one. In fact I think it's at best supplementary to a type of listening that proceeds from the analysis of the work's character to discussing the more and less truthful ways of making a rendition of it, as quite commonly practiced, for instance, by professional concert critics trained in the art.

-PT
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 04:27:15 PM by Polarius T »

Offline sperlsco

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2008, 04:50:19 PM »
Okay, I think that this discussion has played itself out -- and unfortunately seems to be escalating on all sides.  As such, I am locking this thread. 

To all, let's continue to have healthy discussions.  It is fine to challenge other's opinions, but let's please stop well short of dismissing them outright.  Everyone's opinions are both valid and welcomed on the Board!
Scott

 

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