Author Topic: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...  (Read 11430 times)

Offline sperlsco

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DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« on: August 05, 2008, 06:21:56 PM »
...potentially sooner if ordered from the SFSO site:

http://www.shopsfsymphony.org/shop/product.php?productid=1206&cat=22&page=1

I am very excited about this release.  There is a real lack of DLvdE released in the SACD format, with Sieghart being the only satisfactory one (in terms of new recordings that is -- so I am excluding the Lennie/IPO one).  I am also thrilled that this one has two male soloists, as I am a big fan of Hampson. 
Scott

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2008, 06:33:52 AM »
Count me out. I'm not crazy about employing a baritone, and Hampson - while possessing a superb vocal instrument -  over interprets everything; seldom allowing the music and text to just speak for itself. Hopefully, I'll be proved very wrong.

I just feel that you need the women's voice to float on top of Mahler's dark and knarly orchestral sounds. A baritone voice just grovels amongst the dark muck that already exists. Anyway, that's my take on it. Maybe it's just that Fischer-Dieskau turned me off to the range of possibilities that might truly exist when employing a baritone. I don't know - you get it and tell me how it is. I'm not pinning my hopes on this; I think it could be yet another slow and long haul.

Barry

Polarius T

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2008, 09:57:29 AM »
There is a real lack of DLvdE released in the SACD format, with Sieghart being the only satisfactory one... 

What's wrong with the Boulez/VPO one? I think it's good to very good in all departments, though of course not everyone likes their Mahler done in a manner as clear-headed and composed as with Boulez every time.

PT

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2008, 02:49:50 PM »
I gave the Boulez "DLvdE" several hearings before deciding that the problem wasn't me. Urmana is a decent Verdi soprano. And as such, I just find her voice too powerful, in an operatic sense, with too big of a vibrato for this particular work. She was also recorded too closely, which compounds that impression. I find it interesting that in "der Abschied", Mahler does not write a single forte or fortissimo for the singer (mezzo/baritone) at all. At the onset, he gives the low voice a piano marking, and never modifies that. Instead, there are simply two crescendo markings: One before "trunkne Welt" (before the orchestral funeral procession), and one towards the end. If memory serves - which it might not - all that high business near the end, where the singer is going on about how the world is all beautiful and blue looking, is to be sung piano. It's my belief - and to please David, I'm not trying to be factual here - that Mahler was not looking for an operatic or overly emotional response. I believe that a bit of restraint and repose is called for here.

To me, the tenor is a total non-starter. He's certainly nowhere as good as some of the "golden oldies" of the past (Wunderlich tops the list for me). In fact, I found this particular tenor no joy to listen to.

On top of that, I found Boulez's approach somewhat colorless in this particular work. For me, the worst spot was the one in the fourth movement, where the young studs come bursting upon the pagoda scene, riding their trusty steeds (where's Brunhilde in all this?). He truly fails to whip up the tempo or dynamics here, and I think it's badly needed at this juncture.

Perhaps hearing this recording on the SACD layer would alter these impressions. I know that balances can sometimes be radically different on the SACD side of things. But for the Vienna Phil. - and in spite of my preference for a mezzo - I would stick to either either the Bernstein one (which has great orchestral detail), or the expensive Orfeo release of Giulini doing it at the Salzburg Festival, along with the identical cast that he had for his DG studio recording from Berlin (Araiza/Fassbinder). In my estimation, that one is truly great (the set is waaaay too expensive though).

I also rather like the 1936 VPO one with Kerstin Thorborg - more than the highly celebrated one with Ferrier, at any rate.

Offline Dave H

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2008, 03:07:11 PM »
Barry:

I totally agree with you about the Boulez/DG--a snooze, with very mediocre singing and not very good sonics. Regarding the end of Abschied--I agree with you there too. I would just LOVE to hear it sung as Mahler wrote it--ppp until that one big crescendo. No one pays any attention to the notated dynamics (least of all Boulez!), and singers particularly can't resist the opportunity to create a big, swooning climax where Mahler clearly intended a mostly hushed sort of intensity. It would be fascinating to hear it done that way.

Dave H

Offline Leo K

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2008, 03:32:58 PM »
I actually really like this Boulez/DG DLVdE...haven't heard this on SACD yet.  It was my top choice for awhile, replaced by Kubelik's live account w/ Janet Baker on Audite.

The Boulez has an articifial quality, or "absract" quality I feel works well with this music...far removed from warmth or emotion, as if this music was filmed with a telephoto lens (which flattens the picture).

--Todd

Offline sperlsco

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2008, 04:48:39 PM »
My response to the Boulez is very similar to Barry and Dave's -- the singers do not have the right type of voices (or I just don't like their voices) and the performance is stuck in neutral.  As such, I never upgraded to the SACD version from the CD version. 

Barry, your comments on the vocal dynamics in Der Abscheid are interesting.  Although I am not looking for a solist to blast out their vocals, I wonder if I would criticize a "correct" performance as being dull and under-sung?  Are there any performances that seem to adhere to these dynamic markings (how about Baker or Ludwig)?
Scott

Offline Dave H

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2008, 05:15:16 PM »
I don't know of any performances that adhere to the indicated dynamics. It's just too tempting to make a big crescendo on "Die liebe Erde" and take off from there. There are a few that attempt a diminuendo for a few bars, but that's about it. I do think that we need to keep in mind that Mahler never heard the work and would doubtless have adjusted the dynamics after some practical experience in performance. It's just that he's so emphatic with the "ppp NO CRESCENDO!!!" indication--but it would have to be prepared very carefully. In particular, the crescendo in the violins leading into this final section would have to be much less prominent than it's usually played in order to maintain continuity and not have the voice compete--with a big, loud "Die" followed by a sudden drop to nothing on "Liebe," which would just sound silly. Perhaps it would make more sense to do the violins' crescendo as a hairpin, so they could get out of the way just as the voice enters. I think the whole point of this passage is that is should be entirely without strain--effortless, and floating.

Dave H

P.S. Todd--I'm with you on the Kubelik/Baker--sensational performance. The Guilini/Orfeo that Barry mentioned is also very good, but Fassbender's rhythm problems in Abschied dampen my enthusiasm somewhat and the playing isn't quite as great as it should be.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2008, 05:34:49 PM »
My memory - faulty though it may be - tells me that Michelle De Young comes closest to the ideal that we're discussing (Reference Recording). Boy, is Dave ever right about the big crescendo in the upper strings, just before the low voice enters with "die liebe". I've never thought about that, but it does seem odd to expect the vocalist to start out softly, if the violins are doing some huge crescendo before hand. Weird. I also think that it's just sort of difficult for many singers to merely float all those high tones softly, after they've already been singing for a good 25 minutes or so (not to mention the previous movements). I'm sure that singing loudly gives them a bit more security up high.

Barry
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 06:29:07 PM by barry guerrero »

Polarius T

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2008, 11:32:13 AM »
I'm basically away again, but I got this inspiration to serialize my replies from DH's star pursuit, so please excuse the mere hint for now (with the bottom line a little later):

SO FAR my question "What's wrong with the Boulez/VPO issue?" has received two kinds of answer:

1) "I just don't like it"/too "boring." (But didn't someone just stress the need to separate mere subjective opining and personal preference from the more factual reasonings?)

2) What we hold against Boulez is that he doesn't follow the apparently dubious dynamic markings where no one else sees any reason to do that, either. (Great...)

So we are to conclude that there appears to be nothing wrong with this recording. That's right; if anything, we should declare the objections faulty  :D. And very good reason for actually proclaiming it as a reference recording is contained in Todd's incisive characterization of the performance captured. That it "has an artificial quality, or 'absract' quality [he feels] works well with this music," basically gives away why the Boulez should earn the Cream of the Crop designation, but in about a week I'd like to elaborate more on this.

But are we even talking about the same recording: I think one would be really hard pressed to characterize Urmana as a voice too big and operatic here (her singing is really remarkably well controlled and intertwined within the rest of the score), and the recording perspective, I think, compliments the great job she's doing like few others I've heard. As a one-liner I'd just put it forward for now that the singing is a major strength of this recording and the sonics are very good indeed.

But if you allow me I'll write a bit more about this next week. In the meantime I suggest you guys borrow a pair of good earphones, preferably of the non-open type that filter out the white noise in the big cities, letting one hear all the nuances and balances; there's a lot that's key acccomplishment in this recording that I don't think you guys haven't paid any attention to at all.   :)

Greetings from up the coastline! More hot creatures have showed up leaving us salivating by the seashore.



-PT
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 12:08:41 PM by Polarius T »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2008, 04:01:00 PM »
Herr Polarius,

I have a pair of Bose noise cancellation headphones. They cost me a good chunk of money too.

By and large, both David and myself have been pretty supportive of Boulez's Mahler. I like most of them. I had some real issues with the DG studio release of M2, but I felt that the "live" performance issued on DVD addressed all those issues (especially the organ). David was probably the first critic to be supportive of his M4 with Cleveland, which was - up to then - receiving luke warm reviews at best. Now everyone seems to think that it's pretty good. I've always been a big fan of his M6 from Vienna.

You seem to keep coming on to this notion of European vs. American critics (maybe it's just David you're after). Well, let me make a generalization that seems to apply to many critics in general, regardless of where they come from. Many critics say that such-and-such artist is great; therefore, everything that he or she have recorded must also be great. Both David and myself attempt to evaluate every recording on its on merits, regardless of who the performers are. You may not get that impression, but take a look at some of the reviews that David has written for Boulez's Mahler cycle - most of them are quite positive.

As for myself, I believe that I addressed your question as objectively as I can, without repurchasing the Boulez "DLvdE" (no way is that happening) to comb through it point by point. You asked the question, I provided my answer. It would be an adaquate "DLvdE", if we lived in a world of few choices. But as with all of the works by Mahler these days, there are tons of choices to comb through. I'm wondering if you're familiar with Bertini's "DLvdE" (?).

To me, Bertini's "DLvdE" is very controlled and very careful - somewhat like the Boulez (I think the big, single F horns that the VPO use aren't the best for this particular work though), but receives far better vocal contributions from Marjana Lipovsek and Ben Heppner. Michael Schade is just a complete non-starter in my book. So, if I wanted a more up-to-date, detailed, controlled, subtle, "German" (and frankly, I don't care where it comes from) performance of "DLvdE", I'd probably reach for the Bertini. I think that Karajan and Giulini are remarkably good as well. Singers do matter in this work, and I feel that "der Abschied" should not be treated as an extended operatic aria. The question as to whether Urmana is the right kind of voice for "der Abschied" or not, is greatly compounded by her having been recorded too closely. I find it uncomfortable to listen to, and that has nothing to do with which speakers, or which headphones I'm using. Once again, I could live with it, if there weren't tons of other recordings already available. Others have brought up Baker/Kubelik on Audite, and that's a very musical place far anyone to start.

Anway, now I have to run.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 05:10:25 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Dave H

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2008, 07:01:37 PM »
Polarius:

Another vote for Bertini as well, a conductor who "out Boulezes Boulez." So, for that matter, does Esa Pekka-Salonen on Sony. The fact that we may be speaking in generalizations, as you well know, does not mean that there is not substance to back them up if necessary, and it is this that distinguishes fact from opionon. Echoing another sentiment of Barry's I would ask the question more directly than he did: Which recordings of this work do you actually own, or have listened to recently? What are your bases for comparison? Barry and I (and others here) have noted numerous versions for purposes of drawing points of contrast. If you want to avoid generalities and stick to facts (and I'm all for that), then let us at least put our cards on the table and speak from the actual experience of listening extensively and comparatively.

Dave H
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 10:46:52 PM by Dave H »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2008, 04:47:16 AM »
Good news. I've missed the fabulous playing on the old Ormandy "DLvdE" so much, that I just bought a used copy, very reasonably priced, through Amazon. Chookasian isn't the greatest mezzo in the universe either, but at least she's not recorded close up. The playing is amazing though.


Offline John Kim

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2008, 06:42:07 AM »
Polarius,

Oh boy, that picture must have been taken at a Korean reasturant, wan't it? :o

John,

Offline Leo K

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Re: DLvdE - MTT/SFSO Announced for 9/9/08 release...
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2008, 03:28:23 PM »
Good news. I've missed the fabulous playing on the old Ormandy "DLvdE" so much, that I just bought a used copy, very reasonably priced, through Amazon. Chookasian isn't the greatest mezzo in the universe either, but at least she's not recorded close up. The playing is amazing though.



Barry, I lucked out and found this cheap at a used store some time ago...I haven't heard it yet, but it's good to hear good things about it.

--Todd

 

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