Bruckner 9th with a completed Finale

[John Kim]

Has anybody heard this recording of B9th with Finale completed?

http://www.abruckner.com/store/cdotherbrucknercds/symphonyno9musical/

Stereophile magazine gave a rave review on this one saying B9th finally sounds complete with this rendition of the Finale.

I have Inbal/FRSO that has another completion of IV and like it very much. I think Bruckner left some truly original writing in this movement, however incomplete it was left.

I am curious to try the new version mentioned above.

John,

[John Kim]

Here is the article on the Bruckner 9th:Finale.

http://www.stereophile.com/musicrecordings/bruckners_symphony_no9_finally_a_ifinalei/index2.html

[barry guerrero]

Wow. Well, the only intelligent view-point is to reserve all judgment until one actually hears this latest effort. I'm at least five recordings behind on this whole topic, so I need to get caught up.

My problem with his whole B9 business - up until the Teldec recording or so - is that, to me, what there is of the finale sounds more like the start of a 10th symphony, than a finale to the 9th symphony. If only 100 bars of the finale to Mahler's 10th existed, I don't think that anybody would say to themselves, "that doesn't belong to the rest of the symphony". If anything, I think that the general public's interest would be all the more peaked. But what there is of a B9 finale, makes me think that Bruckner suddenly jumped from planet Earth to Jupiter, or Saturn. Further more, keep in mind that the law firm of Samale, Phillips, Cohrs, & Mazzuca have had to compose the coda and final perorations entirely on their own (and I'm not trying to be snarky - I'm trying to be a bit humorous). If anything should have convinced me of the possibility of coming up with a truly satisfying finale, it should have been the Harnoncourt lecture/demo from his VPO recording. While I found Harnoncourt's lecture/demo to be quite interesting, neither was I convinced that the the 9th symphony HAD to be finished. I didn't feel any great sense of urgency - much less need - in getting Bruckner's 9th finished. But as I said above, I'll reserve any final judgment until I actually  hear this latest attempt. Just keep in mind that while much of the "grunt work" may be thoroughly convincing, the entire coda was not in the slightest bit penned by Bruckner.

[barry guerrero]

It appears that I wasn't entirely correct in my last statement. Some sketches regarding the coda apparently do exist. But I think it's certainly questionable as to just how complete it was left, and what Bruckner actually felt about those sketches. It's my personal opinion that Bruckner struggled with finales in general (and in my opinion, his best finale is the one to B5). Bruckner's own suggestion was to follow the first three movements with his "Te Deum". Personally, I find Bruckner's peaceful ending to his Adagio to be totally satisfying. Therefore, I like the idea of beginning a concert with the Te Deum; then intermission; then play B9 in its well-known three movement version. To me, that would be a perfectly satisfying, Brucknerian experience.

[John Kim]

I ordered a copy and will get it before Wed. So, I will tell you how 'complete' the Finale sounds in the latest reconstruction. All the scholars involved in the task insist that Bruckner indeed completed the finale in a draft form. Only the coda was not completed but recently some of the missing scores surfaced giving strong hints as to how the work should end. Personally, I like the idea of having BOTH the three movts. and the completed versions. Ultimately, the judgement is upon the listener, and I for one am more than willing to open up my mind to embrace the completed version.

Stay tuned.

John,

P.S. classicstoday.com also gave pretty rating 9/9 for another completed B9th recording available on Naxos.

[John Kim]

The copy arrived today and I listened to the entire performance once and the Finale twice. I like this version of the Finale VERY much. The conductor - Friedmann Layer - takes it very slowly (a little over 25 min.) revealing many details in Bruckner's original writing. You know, we all agree that any Bruckner symphony Finale could be weak when it comes to structure, e.g., B8th:IV, so it doesn't surprise me that this finale also sounds somewhat lacking cogency. But since I have always taken it for granted, it works just fine the way it is realized here by Samale-Phillips-Cohrs-Mazzuca. The tricky and crossing rhythm in the opening and the following development are perhaps the most original Bruckner ever wrote; they almost sound as if they were composed by someone who was more tuned to modern music. The central fugue is also intriguing and awesome in its polyphony and orchestration. I find only the final coda is less than satisfactory, despite that it was strengthened by inserting new motives and melodies. Perhaps another conductor with deeper insights might come up with a recording that reveals more details and secrets in the score. Or, somebody may even come up with a better version of the Finale someday. But until that day comes I will live with this version and recording happily. It is quite an achievement by all accounts.

John,

[barry guerrero]

You just unwittingly talked me out of taking the plunge. If the coda isn't wonderful, then what's the point?  I'll just take your word on the matter, and continue to enjoy B9 in its standard three-movement form.

Barry

[John Kim]

I must clarify things here.

There is a big chorale at the end where all the themes from the previous movts. resurface and make a big hymn-like passage. This is typical of Bruckner, so it just sounds as perfect and solid as I can imagine. But right after this there is the final peroration that continues right through the end. It's sort of the passage in M2nd where the pure orchestra takes it over from the chorus in V. I feel that this part sounds weak compared to what has just gone before. Here, there is no distinct melody, a fraction, or whatever that rings my ears. Perhaps, that's the way it should, but I was slightly disappointed.

John,

[John Kim]

I listened to it again and this time I liked it even more.

I think I don't have a big issue with the choral passage in the end anymore.

But I wish they had cleaned up some of 'connecting passages' and provided a tighter structure. There seem to be just too many of them in the movt. and I feel sometimes they threaten to destuct the cogency of the movement. Also, I wish the central fugue section were longer because it is so wonderful.

To sum up, I really like

1) the opening theme - it's one of the most inventive, trickiest, and 'modern' that Bruckner ever wrote.

2) the recurring big choral passage in which the whole brass sing out out 8 or 10 note descending melody. It's the most grandiose and awesome passage Bruckner ever wrote.

3) the fugue section

As it is, it's not as great as B8th:IV or even B5th:IV, but it has a POTENTIAL to outclass them all. Honestly, I think this movt. along with the Scherzo, comes closest to Mahler and for that reason alone I love the piece.

Let's hope that someday some scholar may come up with a better version.

Meanwhile, I am fully satisfied with this latest edition.

John,

[John Kim]

I finally bought Eichhorn/Bruckner Linz Orch./Camerata B9th with the Finale.

I am really impressed with the way Eichhorn takes the whole 30 min. length on the last movt. It seldom sounds dragging nor fragmentary. On the contrary, the movt. now becomes fully valedictory with every bar sounding as meaningful and authoritative as I can imagine. Some critics dismissed the Eichhorn criticizing the slow temp, lack of involvement. But I cannot accept such a verdict. This has become my favorite B9th with a complete Finale.

John,

[barry guerrero]

You'd be in great company as Fred Beckman - who has passed away - liked the Eichorn version the best of any as well. F.B. had extremely critical ears, and did ALL of his listening on Quad electrostatic speakers.

[John Kim]

You'd be in great company as Fred Beckman - who has passed away - liked the Eichorn version the best of any as well. F.B. had extremely critical ears, and did ALL of his listening on Quad electrostatic speakers.

Who's Fred Beckman??

I am glad someone with critical ears would agree with me on the Bruckner 9th Finale.

You should try the Eichhon.

You'll not want to hear the B9th w/o the Finale.

John,

[barry guerrero]

"Who's Fred Beckman??"

I told you! - someone with critical ears and a pair of Quad electrostatic speakers. Actually, I've mentioned F.B. before, as he's the person who first imported Wuhan tam-tams (Chau Gongs, they're called over there) into the U.S. after the thaw with communist red China. His personal dining room gong was played by Gordon Peters on the Solti/C.S.O. "Das Lied von der Erde" recording. Many of the American orchestras still use Wuhans imported and sold to them by Fred. Pittsburgh S.O. has a 50" one (130 cm) that he sold them. I got to hear that one at the end of "Pictures".

Barry

[waderice]

Sorry to plead ignorance over types of tam-tams, more specifically and likely, their sound, which is the apparent focus of attention here.  Simply put, I'm not a percussionist.

What is the advantage of a Wuhan tam-tam over a regular one?

Wade

[John Kim]

I've listened to Eichhorn's B9th Finale three times and I am pretty convinced this is by far the best, the most consistent, and the most convincing treatment of the incomplete (but completed) movt. Believe me, there is lots of good Bruckner stuff here!

John,