Author Topic: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6  (Read 20190 times)

Offline Nathaniel

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2010, 05:31:41 AM »


I've heard quite a few A/S performances but I haven't heard a really good one yet. I have my doubts that it works musically, but I'll be happy to be proven otherwise. It hasn't happened yet though.

 

Offline Russ Smiley

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2010, 03:03:05 PM »
Nathaniel,

I'm an A/S heretic.  Which recorded A/S performances have you disliked?
Russ Smiley

Offline John Kim

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2010, 03:33:07 PM »
The ONLY A/S recording I like (and I like it very much) is Zinman's on RCA. He treats the A as if it were the S and the S as if it were the A, and that's how it works out for me. But then this interpretation merely strengthens the justification for the S/A order. :'(

John,

Offline Nathaniel

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2010, 12:21:59 AM »


Let's see. The first one, I guess is the Jansons LSO which I used to like actually, although I have to note that it was before I had any serious understanding or (more importantly) sharper instincts for this symphony.

Gergiev, although I'd rather be punished locked in a cell with 24 hours of Strauss waltzes than listen to this guy do his inept Mahler (I do appreciate his prokofiev very very much, so he's not all bad...).

Abbado BPO, while I'm not crazy about Abbado's Mahler altogether, I have to say I LOVE his M4 with Banse (DVD).

And Fischer. Now here is a conductor who is close to my heart. His Bartok moves me beyond words. But I feel his Mahler is too tame. And his M6 has (in my view) no edge.

So there you have it -- a few examples. But that's my prefereces and my taste only. As far as my preferences for the 6th -- there are many. I may have mentioned that I really loved the Noseda BBC (2009) broadcast (not the one from this year) which is absolutely sensational. Worth trying to check it out in my opinion. (It's S/A of course).

John, I haven't heard the Zinman RCA yet, by the way.






Nathaniel,

I'm an A/S heretic.  Which recorded A/S performances have you disliked?

Offline Russ Smiley

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2010, 01:12:00 AM »

Let's see... Jansons LSO.... Gergiev... Abbado BPO.... Fischer...

I ditched those (except for Jansons/LSO), for many of the same reasons you cited, and also Jansons/RCO and Rattle/CBO.

The A/S versions I prefer are by Mackerras/BBC, Delfs/MSO, Zinman/ZTO, Levine/BSO, and Schwarz/RLPO.

I have issues or quibbles with each one (and just about every other M6 recording in my collection), but the Mackerras and Delfs are probably most satisfactory from my perspective.
Russ Smiley

Offline Nathaniel

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2010, 02:04:33 AM »


Russ,

I haven't heard the Delfs, but I believe it's S/A, no? Thanks for bringing up the Mackerras! I haven't listened to it since it came out. I'm looking forward to hearing it again!

Nathaniel

Offline Russ Smiley

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2010, 12:56:45 PM »


Russ,

I haven't heard the Delfs, but I believe it's S/A, no?

Nathaniel

Right you are.  I pulled a fast one on my player and reversed the order.  Apologies.
Russ Smiley

Offline sperlsco

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2010, 02:53:18 AM »
...
Hard to believe that this is what passes for scholarship, and that this is the guy in charge of Mahler's legacy. Heaven help us! One thing I have learned, both in researching the vibrato question as well as many other issues: take any quotation or citation, go back to the original source, and chances are you will see that the source is either being quoted out of context or used in an intentionally misleading fashion--often to the point where the original source is made to say the opposite of what is clearly means.
...
Dave H


Unfortunately, this is a societal problem these days.  We have an entire "news" network with the Orwellian motto of "Fair and Balanced" that literally does nothing other than spread misinformation to its willfully moronic viewers based on out of context lies (that is, when they aren't just making things up).  Then again, our A-List newspapers like the New York Times and Washington Post aren't a whole lot better -- full of poorly researched and generally substance-free articles and opinion columns.   
Scott

Offline GL

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2010, 10:02:42 AM »
The question should not be put in terms of orthodox vs heretics. Here we are dealing with responsabilities of professionals in musicological and performing fields.
The question is that, on the musical point of view, there are more reasons in favor of the S/A order; on the other hand, there is what Mahler did in conducting the Sixth. I think that who are supposed to be in charge of Mahler's legacy should simply take note of this, without taking sides (maybe, instead of throwing new edition of works available, they should concentrate themselves and their funds on editing works that are not yet available, such as the Hamburg version of the First and Mahler's arrangements of works by Beethoven, Schubert etc.. They are among the plans of the IGMG, but not in the first place as they deserve) .

In beginning my post I was a little heated and I wrote that Mr. Kubik should be the custodian of Mahler's texts. Since I believe the "text" of music is its performance, I should have written that IGMG should be the custodian of Mahler's "recipes": they have to put together and to present as clearly as possible all the ingredients in order to put the performers in the right position to make informed and responsible choices.

If a conductor is able to perform the Sixth making people feel that the A/S order is, if not correct, acceptable, he has his right to perform the Symphony so. If one likes the A/S order, he/she has the right to reverse the order of recordings that do not present it (as I do with recordings that present it...). I don't want to impose waht I think to be correct order to anyone and I don't want somebody to impose what he feels correct on me.

Nevertheless, as I wrote, I try to maintain an open mind. Consider, for example, M. Tilson Thomas' recording of the Fourth. He has no regards for contrasts in changing the tempos required by Mahler between numbers 9 and 11 of the third movement. I was surprised on first hearing it, but, Thomas conception (and San Francisco Symphony great execution) of this Symphony, forced me to find this choice apt and the result wonderful. I don't feel guilty (or heretic) when performances that disregard Mahler instructions succeed in bringing to light the beauty and the greatness of Mahler's music. I tried Mr. Norrington's approach without prejudices and I found that it doesn't work. I'm not irritated with Mr. Norrington approach or with the ones that find it nice, I'm really irritated with him and (less) with his fans when they claim that it must be THE approach.

Consider now this example of "criticism":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/07/AR2010050702750.html

and focuse your attention on these two passages:

1) "One unusual approach comes from Roger Norrington, a noted proponent of original playing styles. For his live recording of Mahler's Ninth, Norrington had the orchestra's strings play in the style of Mahler's time, in which vibrato was minimal or absent except as a special effect. The effect of this clean, transparent sound on Mahler's last completed symphony is quite wonderful: Far from being dense and doom-laden, it emerges as a work of surprising optimism despite a sense of abschied (farewell) throughout."

2) "By contrast, Christoph Eschenbach's performance of Mahler's First Symphony is rather ordinary: It does not seem as thoroughly thought-through as those of Norrington, Olson and Zinman. Eschenbach repeatedly slips into small but irritating mannerisms, such as a ritard and brief pause before this or that emphatic chord -- a disruption of flow that Mahler, a brilliant conductor, was perfectly capable of writing into the score had he wanted it. The playing is excellent throughout -- the brass is especially good -- but the quieter sections are not as expressive as they can be. There is plenty of skill in Eschenbach's performance, but it is rather lacking in heart."

It is impossbile to assume as a fact that "the orchestra's strings play in the style of Mahler's time, in which vibrato was minimal or absent except as a special effect" and then taking this as a point of departure for a review. Moreover, even if I can feel a sense of hardly gained serene abandonment at eh end of the Ninth and of Das Lied, to speak about "optimism" is really too much.

I like Eschenbach last release. After reading this review, since I did not recall what the reviewer complains, I listen to it again, score at hand. At least in this recording, Eschenbach does not use the latest critical edition. Nevertheless, a part emphasizing a V/I resolution between bars 37/38 of the Scherzo, he follows Mahler instructions rather closely, including the Luftpause that irritated the above critic ("a disruption of flow that Mahler, a brilliant conductor, was perfectly capable of writing into the score had he wanted it"-well, mate, actually he did write it!).

The Norrington's has been largely discussed here. About the Eschenbach's, here they are two different reviews with which I'm happy to agree:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12764
http://www.classicstodayfrance.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=3576

The problem, what I find irritating, is that there will be people who will buy the Norrington's because the critic insinuated that he performs Mahler as it should be and who will stay away from the Eschenbach's because of his alleged liberties. The issue is not concert goer and listener's tastes, the real problem is the integrity of musicologists (check also what Benjamin Korstvedt did: http://www.classicstodayfrance.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=3595), performers and critcs. 

Luca

P.S.
Barry,

there is no E natural at the Finale beginning. The first comes at bar 9 (first trumpet (ff) and first trombone (ff)). 




Offline barry guerrero

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2010, 06:23:41 AM »
Thank you Luca. At the time I wrote those observastions, I didn't have a score handy with me. It would make sense that the "E" would be left out, as the start of the finale is technically a "tonal area" in C, as opposed to actually being in the key of C. We don't really settle into a full blown key area until the A-minor tuba solo. But hey, the composer of the theme to "Fantasy Island" must have been familiar with the passage in question ("Boss; the plane, the plane!"). 

Offline GL

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2010, 06:25:39 PM »

The problem, what I find irritating, is that there will be people who will buy the Norrington's because the critic insinuated that he performs Mahler as it should be and who will stay away from the Eschenbach's because of his alleged liberties. The issue is not concert goer and listener's tastes, the real problem is the integrity of musicologists (check also what Benjamin Korstvedt did: http://www.classicstodayfrance.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=3595), performers and critcs. 

Luca



For what concerns Bruckner's Fourth and the latest slaughter in musicological field, how is possible not to agree with the following article?

http://www.classicstoday.com/features/Bruckner-4th.pdf

Luca

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: from: Classicstoday; Re: new criticial edition of M6
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2010, 06:26:50 AM »
Well I think David should stop pussy-footing around, and just say what he truly thinks   ;)

 

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